Underpinner or Pneumatic Nailer??

Jonathan D · Post by **Jonathan D** » Sun 18 Mar, 2007 9:41 am

Sorry - I know the underpinner question seems done to death - but this is a special case. I'm opening a smallish art gallery and doing my own framing - I might do a bit of external framing (selling to others).

That being said - my volume will be small... I'm only going to be making 30 something frames to start and perhaps 10 a month after this point. Those are fairly realistic numbers, I feel.

Also - the style (hence dimensions) of the frames will be quite consistent.

SO - can I just build a jig for my mitre joints (cut with a large tablesaw) and use my pneumatic nailer to finish the joints, puttying over the nailheads? Is this SO much worse than using an underpinner? I understand an underpinner would be quite a lot faster - but I don't think I'm doing the amount of production that would really require it...

Can someone guide me a little bit on this??

Thanks much,
Joanthan

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sun 18 Mar, 2007 10:28 pm

Welcome to the forum Jonathan,

As long as the mitre is tight and neat, how you achieve that, especially if speed and volume is not an issue, does not really matter. But a mitre vice may be better than a jig and a nail gun may be overkill.

Jonathan D · Post by **Jonathan D** » Sun 18 Mar, 2007 11:36 pm

Yes - well - I may well end up using a mitre vice.... (any suggestions on a good one?) - though I'm a bit concerned about having the clearance to work properly with the nail gun. The nail gun is actually pretty good, as long as you shoot straight. I feel it is a little bit 'cleaner' in a way, as you don't have a big, unsightly V-nail in the back of the frame, simply a couple of 2mm putty spots, which, if you match well, can be nearly invisible.

The nail gun doesn't have to be overkill if you use a 16-18pt. brad.

Though - perhaps, not knowing much about the actual underpinners - maybe they offer a failsafe method of getting perfect joints that I may find elusive with another system (such as this one)

markw · Post by **markw** » Mon 19 Mar, 2007 5:25 pm

Where did you get the impression that a underpinner leaves an unsightly V nail in the back of the frame? Even the most primitive underpinner will give you a better result than pinning the sides of the frame. Properly finished the small indent left on the non visible back of the frame by an underpinner is neatly taped up and is totally invisible - as for putty spots - nah couple of little white spots on the side of the frame wont matter - to a blind man.

It sounds to me that you don't understand some of the finer points of picture framing and are prepared to sell substandard workmanship in your gallery - not the best way to start out. Get the right machinery and invest in some training.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Mon 19 Mar, 2007 7:38 pm

Jonathan,

It seems that you have very little knowledge of the business you are intending to go into.
Your statement

The nail gun is actually pretty good, as long as you shoot straight. I feel it is a little bit 'cleaner' in a way, as you don't have a big, unsightly V-nail in the back of the frame, simply a couple of 2mm putty spots, which, if you match well, can be nearly invisible

is a dead giveaway.

What made you choose this industry?

Guidance:
Go to a framing school and learn the basics. That will only give you a small percentage of the knowledge you will need. This will not be the end of your education, you will continue to learn for many years after that.

Once that is done, do not practice on other peoples artwork. Ensure that you know how and can frame very well before you start framing other people's stuff.

Please don't treat this industry with contempt by thinking that you can learn everything you need to know from a few questions on this forum. The people here are professionals and are willing to help, but my opinion is that you should learn the basics by at least attending a framing school or perhaps spending a few years working in a a reputable frame shop.

If you read the topic "too bad for bluners and gaffes section!" in the General Discussion section, you will see what a mess some people can make when they don't have enough knowledge and skill. You wouldn't want to do that would you?

Education is a vital key to being involved successfully in this industry!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Tue 20 Mar, 2007 12:01 am

Jonathan D wrote:Yes - well - I may well end up using a mitre vice.... (any suggestions on a good one?) )

Well HERE is one from lion.

I won't be too hard on you because 'There but for the grace of God .....!"

But I've used the phrase 'All the gear and no idea' before and it sounds like you could be entering the trade without the gear and still no idea?

Doing a 'bit of external framing' means that anything can come in for framing - so what do you do if someone wants a football shirt with both sides visible? (You won't be the only one here cringeing at the thought!)

Or a valuable piece on paper?

Or an antique needlework sampler?

Turn the jobs down? That's not a very good impression to give.

It may also surprise some that there are some very successful and high-end framers out there that do not own underpinners at all, they clamp and nail everything!

Still - who are we to dictate, maybe you only want to frame the sort of things that you sell and in the same manner, whatever that is - and maybe, in time, your business may evolve to take on items such as mentioned above, learning the hard way is fine, as long as your experience is not at the expense of others!

Jonathan D · Post by **Jonathan D** » Tue 20 Mar, 2007 2:11 am

Well - sorry to give the impression. If anything at all... I'd be doing the odd framing job for friends. I don't mean to be snotty or anything - but, well - no - I would definitely NOT be doing a football shirt or needlepoint - certainly on moral grounds if no other. When I used to live in Canada, I used to build museum cases out of walnut for artists who exhibited internationally and had a very high reputation to uphold. I'd just use epoxy and strap clamps. Certainly no gear there - and it got me by... anyway...

I would LIKE - if possible to limit the debate to the realm of

"can I get away with a mitre vice for making nice corners - or would a 2nd hand Pistorius or Cassesse machine be just SO MUCH better...??"

If someone could just give me some direction with that - it'd be great. Framing is NOT going to be my concentration... just one of the many things I need to do to start a gallery - though I'm trying to do it all myself... and I'm very certain I have nowhere NEAR the expertise that you people do... but it also allows me to have a perspective on it that you won't. For that, and my apparent lack of sensitivity with respect to 'the trade' - I apologize. So, that being said - the question remains... can I get away with a mitre vice for making nice corners - or would a 2nd hand Pistorius or Cassesse machine be just SO MUCH better...?

Sorry again - to have got off on the wrong foot.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Tue 20 Mar, 2007 3:06 am

Jonathan,

There is so much more to framing than joining four pieces of wood!

Please read the "too bad for bluners and gaffes section!" in the General Discussion section. You will see what sort of rubbish people turn out who have no knowledge!

If you don't care what sort of rubbish you turn out then there is nothing anyone here can do about that.

If you do care, then you need a lot of education before you frame artwork and sell it to unsuspecting buyers!

It's your choice and I suspect from reading your posts that I know what your choice will be!

Jonathan D · Post by **Jonathan D** » Tue 20 Mar, 2007 3:29 am

Hi Osgood... I'm just looking for a little technical direction with equipment I'm not familiar with. Please don't make assumptions about what I can do. It's just tasteless. Do you really think I've never built a frame before? I've built approximately 90-110 frames before this. I'd really like to think I know what I'm doing (I don't want to get into quality comparisons of yours vs. mine - but I'm not terribly worried about it - and not because I don't care). I think I've made enough blunders to know what I want and to know how to avoid them.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Tue 20 Mar, 2007 3:44 am

Jonathan,

My assumptions are based entirely on your questions and what you have said. I never assumed you have never built a frame before!

As I said before building a frame is only one part of the deal and not the most important one either. I can show you many people who can make a frame to a good standard, but they don't have a clue "how to frame" things correctly.

I would gladly teach you a lot of stuff that would enable you to frame things to a high preservation standard, but not in five minutes!

Two questions for you:

1. What is it that you are framing??
2. Do you know about preservation framing?

Jonathan D · Post by **Jonathan D** » Tue 20 Mar, 2007 4:15 am

Well - I do 'know about' what we'd call 'conservation framing', and have a few years of university level chemistry courses under my belt (enough to get me into trouble!) - but I feel extremely confident about my ability to choose methods and materials that will avoid deterioration of framed works. I certainly have opinions on buffered vs. unbuffered 'museum board' etc.. it's not rocket science.

I am framing ONLY photographs. Silver based (mostly trad. silver gelating and Type C prints). Nothing else. But anyway - I digress. I really really appreciate the crazy amounts of experience everyone has on here. Principles and practice of conservation framing is not why I came here, however. I was hoping to learn more about the ergonomics and practice of different methods of joint making - and if the methods I HAVE been using (which I'm FAIRLY happy with - and I'm fairly certain they'd pass muster with a curator at the museum of modern art, let's say - boasting a bit here) can be far bested by spending a fair amount of money on a machine - within the context of a fairly limited production capacity.

I hope that makes SOME sense, and I'm not shooting myself in the foot again.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Tue 20 Mar, 2007 4:30 am

Thanks for the answers Jonathan.
Matboard is a topic that could open another can of worms. Personally I always use Bainbridge Alphamat for everything. This is made from Alpha pulp that has no lignin and has zeolytes which absorb gases in the frame package. It is a giant step above "buffered" boards! (Which still contain lignin, which produces acid)

I trust that you would be using the same or rag mats, but hopefully not just "buffered" boards. They just won't do at a museum of art anywhere, I wouldn't think.

You say: "Principles and practice of conservation framing is not why I came here".
It's really worthwhile thinking about using those principles and practices for photos! It's important to make them last as long as possible, just like any artwork.

If you spend money on good equipment for framing you will save yourself time and get a great result. Not all equipment is the same quality so keep in mind that you get what you pay for!

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Sun 25 Mar, 2007 5:36 pm

For occasional use, you could get one of these which you could probably get cheap on Ebay, say £50-£60.

I've used one for a couple of years and they are fine for small to medium frames and mouldings, although you will probably find it's a bit slower than your nailgun as you have to hand feed the nails individually.