Framing Photos without a mount for a Photographer

[Bagpuss]

Some of you probably do a lot of regular framing for local Photographers, I don't at the moment but am hoping to do more this year.

I got a new toy off Santa this year, a 26" Drytac Jetmounter which I'm going to use for sticking down high gloss photos. I can use this to stick photos onto board, now when you're photographer customer asks for it just to be framed, with no mount around it, would you place it directly into the frame with glasss pressed up against the photo ?
Normally I'd use framespace to put some space between the glass/photo, I'm wondering if it's ever acceptable to place the photo directly against the glass ? Are your photographers happy for you to do that to keep the price down ? I'd probably feel a bit uncomfortable doing it but I would like to know what you think.
thanks,
Adam/Bagpuss

[CanvasChris]

Why put glass in it....

Mount onto Hotpress Mount Board and laminate the image. My customers love the different textured laminates and the standard ones too.

No fluff/dust and they are wipeable.

[Graysalchemy]

I always put a mount around the photos, even cheap as chips commercial jobs. A mount has the purpose of protecting the image from the glass, ever tried taking a small family photo out of a small frame? they usually stick to the glass. Also pictures need a border around them from an aesthetic point of view so that the eye is lead into the picture.

Unfortunately photographers don't always see this and think that their image should be the most important part which I suppose it is, but a frame not only protects a piece but enhances it. A smaller picture and a larger mount will enhance a picture more than a larger picture and no mount. As a general rule I always put at least a 3" mount round pictures upto 14x10" then 4". Narrow mounts also do nothing to a picture and also a double or extra thick is better than a single.

Unfortunately as I have recently found out a lot of photographers charge the same for any frame upto a certain size so quite often coheres there customer into a small narrow frame with no mount as they will make more money.

However as the customer is always right if you are going to go down that road then use a frame spacer as the picture will stick to the glass. One way of getting your photographer customers to see the light is to show them examples and show how this could set them apart from their competitors, also show them what is in fashion in the fine art market ie Demontford and Washington Green.

Cheers and good luck

AG

[markw]

High gloss photos will give you a nice example of an effect called newtons rings - the reflection of light from two surfaces causes dark rings to appear and can ruin the look of the image. You can use the etched side of non reflective glass against the image to reduce the effect. (a solution - but not an elegant look in my opinion).

[prospero]

Photos are funny things. You can put quite aggressive solvents on them, generally without damage, but a tiny amount of moisture will attack the surface. So any condensation on the glass will cause the photo to stick.

Textured heatsealing is a good way, but you have to mount them on a quite rigid substrate or they would tend to bow in a frame without glass. You would also have to use a reasonably chunky frame or the whole thing would be too flimsy.
All in all, using glass+framespace would probably work out cheaper if price is an issue.

[Bagpuss]

Framespace it is then
Thanks everyone.

[Gesso&Bole]

If photographers are wanting 'cheap as chips', then I usually just suggest they order ready-mades from Border frames, or whoever, as I wont work for nothing. But, I find there is a good market for doing quality work when their customer will pay.

I certainly wouldn't be all that enthusiastic about doing a glossy photo without a mount (which for me is a double as standard).

[stcstc]

i do quite a few prints, mounted on foamcore, with a laminate on them

then stuck in a frame with no mount or glass

i have a particular customer who wants this kind of thing

its quicker to do, cheaper to do, and no cleaning glass

i tend to be doing a bunch at once, standard size frames, so can print a big sheet, stick it to foamcore with a laminate and cut it up into each image, then bung them in frames

client has something a little different, i make more margin, everyone is happy

[Custard]

I live in one of the UK's main yachting centres on the south coast and I've seen several examples of beautiful "Beken of Cowes" vintage sailing prints that were framed behind glass without mounts. Most have been virtually destroyed over the intervening years. I keep a few to show to any photographer wanting a mountless frame!

[Not your average framer]

Before so many contract framers went to the wall during the present economic difficulties, they would happily give these photographers exactly what they want and take the money with a smile.

Unless the photographer expects you to stick your lable on the back and providing that you have warned him that this is not the practice you recommend, with a suitable disclaimer on each invoice, then you are still able to give him what he wants and have no cause to worry about it.

Generally such customers have no loyality and will be on the lookout for someone who will beat your price, but if you would like the extra business, then why not!

Any photographer with so little concern about the presentation, or longevity of his work, is not likely to gain much of a reputation and may one day go bust. You may like to consider the implications, if this happens!

Personally, I get no satisfaction from doing such obviously second rate work, but if I needed the work, I'd still be up for it at the right price. Don't work for peanuts, that's how so many contract framers have gone bust!

[stcstc]

Firstly

how is it second rate work. second rate to what.

then depending on the market, ie disposable photography, cheap and cheerful. its a very appropriate way of producing work that looks good for a while. everything doesnt have to last forever and not always designed to

and some photographers will choose it as a style, nothing to do with the price etc. like i said earlier i have a couple like that who do a god bit of this type of work with me.

[Roboframer]

I'm wondering if it's ever acceptable to place the photo directly against the glass ? Are your photographers happy for you to do that to keep the price down ? I'd probably feel a bit uncomfortable doing it but I would like to know what you think

We all have default standards and as long as the customer's choice is an informed one, why worry?

Sometimes you just have to take a deep breath and either just do it or refuse to, and sometimes you can cut the price even furher, by making a ready-made-to-order. The customer fits the artwork and you've won a job from Ikea/whoever.

The customer WILL get what s/he wants and you are running a business.

[Graysalchemy]

Generally such customers have no loyality and will be on the lookout for someone who will beat your price, but if you would like the extra business, then why not!

Any photographer with so little concern about the presentation, or longevity of his work, is not likely to gain much of a reputation and may one day go bust. You may like to consider the implications, if this happens!

We all have default standards and as long as the customer's choice is an informed one, why worry?

Sometimes you just have to take a deep breath and either just do it or refuse to, and sometimes you can cut the price even furher, by making a ready-made-to-order. The customer fits the artwork and you've won a job from Ikea/whoever.

The customer WILL get what s/he wants and you are running a business.

Well said both of you I am all for raising the standard but if that is what they want let them have it, as long as they are aware of the consequences.

AG

[Steve Goodall]

As a side note to this topic I will start a new thread called SWPP Convention shortly with links etc.

But - basically what I wanted to say was - - - if you are a framer in the South East & are free next Fri / Sat / Sun - it might be worth popping along to this show to see what other companies (like Border - who got a mention earlier) are offering professional photographers. Look & learn - you may not like what you see - but you will see what people are buying...

[sim.on]

On the rare occassion I frame cheap photos without a mount, I cut 3mm wide strips (not on the mountcutter but using a Stanley knife and metal ruler on top of scrap mdf or hardboard) from grey centre Colourmount (very) sticky board then blacken one edge (for black frames). I clean the glass, drop it in the frame then stick the strips around the glass making sure they butt against the rebate. Takes no time at all and you can do lots and lots of frames for a fiver.

[Graysalchemy]

As a side note to this topic I will start a new thread called SWPP Convention shortly with links etc.

But - basically what I wanted to say was - - - if you are a framer in the South East & are free next Fri / Sat / Sun - it might be worth popping along to this show to see what other companies (like Border - who got a mention earlier) are offering professional photographers. Look & learn - you may not like what you see - but you will see what people are buying...

Focus is always good if only to see what a decent trade show looks like puts our section of spring fair to shame.

[Steve Goodall]

The SWPP show is pretty big too & handy for anyone around London who doesn't want a trip to the NEC.

[Not your average framer]

how is it second rate work. second rate to what.

Hi Stephen,

A fair point!

I mean it is a second rate job, when the customer will compromise almost anything to save a few pence, while his customer has no idea that the photo is touching the glass and the long term effects of doing so. Such jobs will NEVER get my label on the back!

It is second rate compared to framing the photo is such a way to avoid contact with the glass, but as I indicated, I'm in business to earn money and if it pays me to do it, then why not.

[stcstc]

fair enough

although i dont do picture against glass, but do a lot with laminates and no glass. like i said above they actually take me way less time to do, and i dont have to clean glass. so they make good money

[Not your average framer]

but do a lot with laminates and no glass...............they make good money

I would not have thought of laminates with no glass as the lowest cost option. Isn't plain float glass a cheaper option, or is there something I've missed here?

Also, are we talking about heat seal laminates, or cold roller laminates?

I have noticed a certain amount of professional photography brought in for re-framing is originally framed this way. It never crossed my mind that this might be for cost reasons! Am I missing out on something I need to know about?