The Forum’s 7000th member

[Tudor Rose]

A very warm welcome to AllStarFrames who have just joined the Forum. They are the 7000th member to register since the Forum began back in 2003.

[Keith Hewitt]

Wonderful news

7000 - but how many are lapsed members, who never ever visit?
And how many are even remotely active posters - maybe 70 or 1%

How do we persuade a few more to become active and make a post
First we need to tell those who have deserted TFF that they are welcome back. I'm doing that
If everyone reading this could persuade just 1 friend to come back that would be a first step.

Any other suggestions

[Keith Hewitt]

121 views - and only 1 comment

Surely you must have an opinion, about what needs to change to get this Forum up to speed.

Lets hear from you.

Your views and opinions are welcome

[vintage frames]

Well, the best thing that's happened to the forum is having Tudor Rose as a new moderator.
She has cleaned up and quarantined one of the most malign presences on the forum. Not only that but she is continually active and alert to annoying multi-posting and the occasional intrusive spam.
So, a big shout out and thank you.

I really enjoy reading this forum and sometimes like to add my own contributions. This can be a bit of a lonely pursuit though. If I post an update on a gilded or hand-finished frame I made, I will always get some kind and understanding comments and maybe up to 100 views on the day.
If someone posts on a topic saying, 'my underpinner isn't joining or my Morso seems blunt', they'll get dozens of replies and at least 300-400 views on the day.
So that's a bit of an echo-chamber, isn't it?

I've always regarded Britain as an amazing crucible of creativity. But I'm left wondering where is the creativity on Framers Forum?
Yes, there are some out there but when I've spoken to those people privately, they say the same old thing - 'When I do post, all I get are a few nods and grunts. Nobody's interested. They're all just pedalling away on their Morsos and too busy joining up the same old manufactured mouldings to give a care'.
My heart rather sinks when I read on the forum about a new comer who has decided on an exciting new career in picture framing, has bought their own Morso and now wants to know where to buy their mouldings from.

We are all just hustlers trying to earn a living and there's nothing wrong with whatever method of framing we choose to pursue but does it all have to be so samey?
Wouldn't it be nice to have someone doing something different - breaking the mould or to use a more fashionable phrase, disrupting the market.

Nothing will change. The current cohort of framers will continue on until they reach retirement and then post their equipment on here for sale.
Maybe a new generation will emerge and give the present mode of working a good kicking down the stairs.
Terence Conran did that in the 70's when interior design was so awful.

So there, maybe that's something to get you all talking.

[Keith Hewitt]

Thank you Vintage

Anyone else want to say what they are thinking,

We need new ideas to get this forum to where it should / could be?

[fusionframer]

I am not sure if it is just me, but one of the things that i enjoy about framing (and joinery) is that i am happy working on my own. Not all framers work on their own, but the job is one where you concentrate on your own job. Compare this when i am on site, say an extension, there is constant chatter and banter. I wonder whether that makes us less confident to post or reply to posts. As i said, it may be just me, but i sometimes write replies and then delete without posting.

Part of the reason (apart from being an introvert) is that as vintage frames alluded to, when you do post a photo of a frame you are pleased with, it is generally received with perhaps one or 2 comments at best and quite a few views and it can cause you to wonder whether others don't like it, or (and this is worse) they think you are showing off.

The point is that it is not about getting lots of people patting you on the back (not for me anyway), but to get constructive criticism. And that may be where the problem lies. I don't want to keep referring back to an issue now dealt with, but it may explain part of the problem with the forum. It took several years and i don't know how many framers leaving the forum, but essentially we were too polite to one member for too long. I know one of the rules on the forum is to be nice, but we are adults and we should be able to have differences on opinion and air them whilst being nice. The recent post with police memorabilia was brilliant as there were different opinions and it resulted in a couple of other examples.

Also with regards posting, there are many really smart factory finished mouldings out there and more framers using them than hand finishing i would imagine. There was a valid point that at one point, the forum was too weighted towards hand finishing. I would think that photos of frames made with FF mouldings would be massively useful. It would help framers see how they look and help the selection process for you. It could also give ideas to framers who do hand finishing.

If you could show a customer an example of a potential moulding even if it someone else's work, i think that would be good.

As for suggestions on how to move forward, perhaps a thread you just add to in 'the good the bad and the ugly' section titled "photo of the last thing i framed" could work. They have that in a woodworking forum i am a member of and it seems to work well.

The other thing i notice on the other forum i am a member of is that they do go off topic and ask for advice or others experiences with anything from tv subscriptions to diy issues and anything in between. It adds to more chatting (typing) and a sense of getting to know each other slightly better i guess.

I will post this now before i delete it and hope that others can add their ideas.

Nick

[StevenG]

As a whole I like this forum, I've learnt a lot from it - and that's what brings me back. When I first joined, (10 years ago!! Where did that go!?) there were more framing techniques & samples of work that I particularly enjoyed looking at. There also seems to a lesser feel of community now and that's unfortunate but I'm glad to see that it's just not me that can see the decline and that in itself can only be a positive thing. I'd love nothing more than to see this place come back to life.

Also, I think a framing business is now just more than making frames so I'd like to see posts about printing/CMC/business discussion/new products.

In our area there aren't really any other framers and we don't really get events so the forum would probably be my main place of interaction/discussion with others in the framing industry.

I enjoy the handfinishing posts but I really need photos I find it hard to imagine what something looks like when it's only described in reference numbers. I have no issue with any kind of framing examples - it's always good so see what other people are doing.

I do agree though, and I'm guilty, of not commenting enough on particular posts - posts that ironically interest me & I feel awful that my lack of action would be discouraging that type of activity. Going forward this is something that I'll change.

I don't really know what to say but I thought I'd say something to hopefully spark some interest/discussion again in this post/forum.

All the best
Steven

[Gesso&Bole]

There have always been, and probably always will be far more 'lurkers' than posters on the forum. But in the last couple of years an overwhelming quantity of repetitive twaddle drowning out useful content has led to regular posters turning off, and new members getting a completely skewed impression of the industry and the forum. Thanks to our new moderator, that downward spiral seems to have been stopped, and the future looks brighter.

As some of you will already know, I run training courses on all aspects of picture framing, mainly on a 1 2 1 basis at my premises. During these sessions I get the opportunity to talk to quite a few new-entrants to this industry and ask their impressions of (amongst other things) the forum. Up until a couple of years ago, the consensus was ' a great place to learn about picture framing' more recently the comments have been 'a useful place to source second-hand equipment, but otherwise I don't look at it much' - this tells me that some effort will be required to rejuvenate the credibility of the forum.

I love to see Vintage Frames posts, and like many others, I am in awe of his skills. I also like to see, and discuss pictures of other people's work, (and post my own). But I am also aware that I am confident, experienced, and have top quality equipment, so it is not a frightening prospect for me to put my work up there. It would be extremely daunting for a new-entrant to post work after a few weeks in the business.

My suggestion is that the structure of the forum could be modified to allow inexperienced members to post pictures of their work in a 'beginners category'. There could be other categories too, to cater for factory finished, or hand-finished or whatever if that's what members wanted.

As for questions about Morso adjustments, and how to un-block an underpinner - I am very happy to help with those. Perhaps we just have to make sure they are asked in the correct section, so that forum users can ignore sections of the forum that they don't want to engage in.

[Rainbow]

I used to belong to another forum, which was very similar to this one in many ways. Like this one, it had been running for about 20 years and the members were a mix of experts, learners, aspirers and lurkers. It was also like this forum in that the members were sensible, articulate and gave (mostly!) reliable advice. Again like this one, the volume of posts gradually decreased over the years, from several hundred a day at its peak to a fraction of that. There was a feeling that this was partly due to other social media outlets dissipating participation and partly due to the fact that all topics had been discussed many times over and there was nothing left to discuss, or the regulars had got bored with answering the same questions. I don’t know whether all forums have the same life cycle, but it seems possible that that’s the case.

What kept the forum going was an active “chat" area, where people talked about anything and everything (apart from politics and religion). So there were threads on gardening, TV programmes, sport, pets, films, etc, as well as threads where people could get something off their chest, announce good news or just say anything that was on their mind. The “chat” area was well populated, so when serious questions were asked or a serious discussion started, there were still plenty of people around to take part.

Because of the “chat” area, the regular members had all got to know each other pretty well, so there was a huge sense of community. You could ask for advice on anything (computer problems, energy suppliers, recyling etc) and know that you would get sensible and reliable answers from people you could trust. A lot of the chat would be regarded as trivial, but it was what held the community together, and ensured there were people to deal with the serious stuff when it arose. I know there is an “After Hours” section here but it’s hardly ever frequented, and I wonder if that's a reflection of the demographic. On the other forum, it was split roughly 80% female / 20% male, whereas on this forum it’s probably nearer the reverse of that demographic. Far be it from me to generalise about we women being more chatty , but there must be some reason as to why a “chat” area is very popular on one forum and not on another. And just to re-iterate, the “chat” area was simply the glue that kept the forum together, not its raison d’etre, which remained the serious stuff.

Ultimately the other forum I belonged to was dissolved by the trade body which hosted it, and I do hope that the same won’t happen to this one. Although it’s not as busy as it used to be, it’s been of huge help to me and other less experienced framers, so I’ll take this opportunity to thank John very much for hosting it and long may it continue.

[Justintime]

Sadly, I dont know what the answer is either. I'm very engaged on Facebook groups, the reason being that so many others are actually engaged too. If I post a question there, while I'm in the middle of a job I need advice on, I'll have advice within an hour or two. As much as anything, I think an issue is the format. Formats like this are clunky compared to the speed and efficiency of social media apps.
I also have a connection with way more framers on those groups. Sure, I know a hand full of people here from face to face meetings, but maybe it's the aliases too. I know very few actual names of people here, so my connection is limited to knowing an alias. Maybe the aliases are actually alienating to some of us.
Basically, it feels like an outdated format and yes I agree, unless something changes profoundly it will eventually be consigned to framing history. Just while I'm here, has anyone actually figured out why uploaded photos are always sideways for some of us and not others???

[Rainbow]

I'm the opposite, Justintime - I really dislike the Facebook format and I really like the format of forums - it's easy to follow a particular topic where replies are all grouped together and it's easy to use the search tool. I don't see the attraction of the Facebook format at all! Thankfully it's not an either/or situation though, there's room for both formats.

I'm more than happy with this forum, and although it's not as busy as it once was, I think the only reason that it would be "consigned to forum history" would be if John decided to dispense with it, not because something fundamental needs to change.

[Tudor Rose]

Justin

Can’t answer as to the why on photos. But the way I’ve found to fix it is this (I use an iPhone):

Go to your photo library.
Pick your photo to use
Click to edit
Rotate the photo back to the correct position (effectively a 360° turn)
Save edits
Post using that photo.

Don’t know why it works, but it does. Otherwise they’re always sideways when I do a Preview.

It’s long-winded but just one of those quirks!

[vintage frames]

I can see Justin's point about FB. It's really responsive. There's always going to be someone sitting on their phone and ready to offer a quick solution to his question. And of course there are so many more FB groups available and international ones too.

But my reason for not engaging with FB is that I find the presentation too tabloid.
I'm also a bit despairing of the level of artistic and aesthetic awareness on any of the framing FB groups.
Great if you want a quick solution to your underpinner or mounting problems. Maybe not quite the place to look if you want serious advice on framing up a museum quality artwork.

Which brings me to this forum. When I think about it, this forum is more a reference resource where subjects are discussed ranging from 'who sells the best glass' to ' how would I begin to water-gild a picture-frame'.
There will always be a lengthy and carefully considered discussion on any of these subjects and I could never imagine seeing that on FB. I think maybe FB is a bit like the TicToc of picture-framing.

Justin himself is an active and knowledgeable contributor to the forum and his posts can stretch over several paragraphs of insightful reading. I can't see that amount of considered thinking working so well on FB.

So if anyone is looking for an easy fix for the forum, I shouldn't bother. It should remain a valuable and learned resource of all aspects of picture-framing. The degree of knowledge shared on the forum will be a sufficient beacon to anyone doing serious work within the trade.

[Keith Hewitt]

Thanks to those who have made suggestions.

Jesso & Bole said...
My suggestion is that the structure of the forum could be modified to allow inexperienced members to post pictures of their work in a 'beginners category'.

Vintage wrote ......
So if anyone is looking for an easy fix for the forum, I shouldn't bother. It should remain a valuable and learned resource of all aspects of picture-framing. The degree of knowledge shared on the forum will be a sufficient beacon to anyone doing serious work within the trade.

Justintime wrote...
Sadly, I dont know what the answer is either. I'm very engaged on Facebook groups, the reason being that so many others are actually engaged too. If I post a question there, while I'm in the middle of a job I need advice on, I'll have advice within an hour or two.

Rainbow wrote
I'm the opposite, Justintime - I really dislike the Facebook format and I really like the format of forums - it's easy to follow a particular topic where replies are all grouped together and it's easy to use the search tool.

StevenG wrote...
I enjoy the handfinishing posts but I really need photos I find it hard to imagine what something looks like when it's only described in reference numbers. I have no issue with any kind of framing examples - it's always good so see what other people are doing.

Fusion framer wrote
I would think that photos of frames made with FF mouldings would be massively useful. It would help framers see how they look and help the selection process for you. It could also give ideas to framers who do hand finishing.
As for suggestions on how to move forward, perhaps a thread you just add to in 'the good the bad and the ugly' section titled "photo of the last thing i framed" could work.

So to sum up..
1) a Beginners section where new starters could post a pic of what they have done.
2) we need more pictures to accompany any post.
3) a section which I would call " What are you framing today ?" - with pictures of course

Jo - hope these suggestions help to grow the forum. and secure its future

[fusionframer]

A quick question for Justintime.

When you post a query on facebook and get a quick reply, do other members of that group get a notification that a query has been asked? I am not social media savvy so don't know if people can get notifications specifically from a group.

I turn off all notifications including emails, WhatsApp and txts as i found myself thinking i should check just in case it was important, but it generally isn't (or not time sensitive at least).

Not sure if you have or could add notifications to the forum or even one category so people would know help is needed.

Cheers

Nick

[vintage frames]

That's an interesting point, fusionframer.
I'll leave the FB replies to Justin but on the point of notifications on this forum, I'm also a member of the American Framers Grumble and when I post anything on a topic there, I get notifications if there are any further replies on that topic.
But maybe that facility isn't available on the FF format.

[Fruitini]

Hi Nick - a delve into the forums user control panel will allow you to customise every element of notifications from the forum including email notifications regarding your own posts and replies, and also new posts from any user to a specific subforum. Facebook I find much less intuitive as far as notifications are concerned, and much harder to control.

[Justintime]

Nick, it's a world of ever changing algorithms out there, so nothing I can say on it is certain.
However if I pull down the notification list on my phone it generally gives me at least two notifications from fb groups(I am a member of many of varying topics). Having already friended a large number of framers from various framing groups, I think the algorithm pushes notifications from those people. I tend to friend the more active members from experts to newbies. A number of framers from fb are authors and experts in their field, be it frame design (Greg Perkins) or mount techniques and design (Russ Wood) etc. To have access to and direct contact with people of this calibre, has helped me grow my business immeasurably.
Don't get me wrong, I value members like Jo and Dermot here on the forum to the same extent, but I am more likely to contact them directly than share on the forum. But saying that, the white noise issue of the past has now been resolved, so maybe that will change. I am realising that if I want the forum to be more engaging then i need to be more engaged!

[fusionframer]

Thank you for replies re notifications.I will have a play with the settings.

Cheers

Nick

[Tudor Rose]

A huge thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. Not what I expected when I posted the announcement, but it certainly sparked some interesting comment and debate. So a big thanks to Keith for starting that off and pushing it forward. I have been working behind the scenes on a daily basis continuing with the Moderation over the Christmas and New Year period and not posting much, but we're back at work from today.

I've taken a note of the summary that Keith posted and I shall be working on that in the coming weeks.

I'd also encourage everyone to post more photos as per the suggestion.

Thanks to everyone for their comments about the recent changes since I became Moderator - I am glad that Forum members are seeing a difference.