Another non-white mount...

[pedro]

If Anyone is interested, You can get a copy of this book from Amazon, it is only £399 !!!

[Glimpse]

So, I said...

The most important thing is to keep the customer satisfied and not impose your views/tastes on them.

Then, for the sake of argument Geoff said:

That is so wrong!!! Are you really a picture framer?... My customers as a rule expect and in fact ask me for advice and I am able to "suggest" lots of ways to frame their art whatever it is. That's what experience enables you to do and not once have I encountered problems.

But then he decided to wholeheartedly endorse my original comments by stating:

They always have the final choice and I would never impose my views as a "you must have this" choice.

Cheers Geoff, I knew you'd come round to may way of thinking eventually, old boy.

[Geoff]

Cheers Glimpse...lets leave it there. Have a nice day!

[cuthbert]

‘The most important thing is to keep the customer satisfied and not impose your views/tastes on them’.
Good morning Mr Framer, I have with me here a large 48 x 24 pastel artwork that I require framing – now, the thing is because it’s rather large, I don’t want real glass as it'll be too heavy and I’ll have nightmares about the thing falling off the wall. What I want is that acrylic, plexi, whatever the name is of that stuff and I don’t want to have to make the frame any larger by having mountboard around it. So, just the artwork face to face with the plastic glass stuff. Okydoky?

Well, as it’s certainly not my job to impose my own views & recommendations Madam, no problem and I'm sure you will be most satisfied with the results!

[Glimpse]

That scenario hardly stands up to scrutiny though, does it Cuthbert. We were discussing taste. The plexi/glass debate isn't a matter of taste, is it.

[cuthbert]

Well, arguably it is – although it was more in line with ‘views’ that I was referring to.

As for taste: ‘Well, yes, Mrs Satisfied Customer as you did ask me I am going to have to agree with you as to how tasty to my taste your pastel of ‘A Tranquil Evening Sunset Over Beckenham’ has now become after that acrylic got those pigment powders pogoing. And that new title you have for it: ‘Hurricane In From Lewisham’ - yes, that's I what call taste, Madam'

[vintage frames]

At last! A decent discussion and a good reality check.
I would see the business of picture framing split into three catagories.
1, The framing of low value decorative art and effemera.
Here we would look for neatly joined frames using mass produced mouldings, cleanly cut cardboard mounts and due care and attention to conservation materials and practice. There is'nt really much else to say.
2, The framing of high value contempory art.
The frames used here would be hand crafted and modelled to match the style and craft of the art work. Several skills would fall within this catagory such as gold leaf gilding, paint effects and wood finishing. The materials and practice would be to museum conservation standards.
3, The framing of rare and antique art.
This is framing at it's finest and most difficult. The requirement is to reproduce a frame in period to the artwork and encapsulate it using all the skills and practice in catagory 2 above.
My argument is that the best results are always obtained when an item is selected and framed to match the correct catagory above. When there is a "cross-over", the result is usually horrible.
Would we put uPVC windows into an ancient building? - even though they would look neat and tidy!
I would say, specialise within one chosen catagory and taste will look after itself.

[Geoff]

That’s a pretty level way in looking at framing generally. Those producing low end framing are generally governed by readymade finished mouldings, perhaps the occasional piece of hand finishing but as a rule frames put together and presented in an acceptable manner as their own ability allows. Of course this can be quite varied
Contemporary framing can be extremely varied and quite a step up/more involved in all aspects from the first level you mention. This, as you allude to, requires a different approach and knowledge and a competent ability of many different skills. These include the timber, profile, it’s construction, making products like sizes, gesso etc as well as a wide range of painted and timber finishes which are endless, and of course various types of gilding using a wide range of leaf and it’s finishing.
The last tier you refer to: rare and antique art is very true. Having been involved in this sphere for many, many years and is very different. Personally, I find this area somewhat easier than the one before. There are many reasons for this primarily the customer will generally know exactly what they are looking for in terms of not just the frame but the finish too. Having been involved in copying finishes from a very wide range of original period frames onto modern frame copies, has to me been a great asset and involves many techniques in distressing, tonal qualities to name but two.
Experience should allow you to suggest and convey other aspects in framing for the benefit in presenting the art. I have a library of almost 130 finished frames and profiles on my computer and usually start by taking an image of the art and placing it selected frames. This to me is always a good starting point. Your last comment is spot on!

[Glimpse]

1, The framing of low value decorative art and effemera.
Here we would look for neatly joined frames using mass produced mouldings, cleanly cut cardboard mounts and due care and attention to conservation materials and practice. There is'nt really much else to say.

To be honest, that comes across as rather dismissive and condescending to what is essentially the vast majority of framing. For most, framing is a commercial enterprise, so I'd judge a framer's success not on how many hand-finishes he can offer, but on how successful he is!
Of course, all aspects of any industry are important, but to dismiss the "bread and butter" end of the market, simply because you feel you've elevated your own framing to a higher echelon, makes you sound like a bit of a "fin du cloche" as the French might say...

[cuthbert]

All good stuff and totally agree. And of course surely – for me anyway – focussing on either tier 2 or 3 provides one with so much more SATISFACTION! I can’t imagine how unfulfilled I would be knocking out frames made with cheap (expensive even?) factory finished mouldy – cut, underpin, done. Where’s the joy in that? The frame I’m working on right now for example - a small Stuart Semple painting – is just a basic modern profile finished in black acrylic and waxed. Nothing special about that at all and I’m sure you can purchase a hundred different similar profile factory mouldings in the same colour. Except they'll all be be shiny, plastic- like, mass produced and cheap looking.

Any word from the defence - the friends of factory finished?

[prospero]

Which particular white is this thread about? I bet I could name 50 or more from mountboard ranges. Each one is different, but if you were to show any one to someone, they would say it was white. I can't remember seeing one that was just called 'White'.

Your eyes are capable of distinguishing millions of colours and sometimes a minuscule variation completely alters the effect.

[Glimpse]

Prospero, I agree completely on the whites. I tend to match whites to the paper. I hate to see an "antique" white mount against a print on a bright white paper. Even if there's edge-to-edge coverage, I find it makes the highlights in the image look too harsh.

As for job satisfaction, of course there's satisfaction in creating something beautiful, no matter what the cost of the materials. But also the satisfaction of a happy customer, and getting paid for ones work.

[cuthbert]

It started on antique and snow ingress but the theme has since moved on to something else: tinker, tailor, soldier, framer – which category of framing are you most happy with/focus your business model on so to speak. All white?

[Glimpse]

I'd choose "Model 1" all day long. I work to live, I don't live to work. Job satisfaction doesn't pay for nice houses, cars, holidays.
I'm a realist - money doesn't by happiness, but it does buy Aston Martins which are almost the same thing. All white?

[cuthbert]

Glimpse, please tell me you don’t have children? That kind of talk about non-job satisfaction takes me back to my childhood and advice to the effect of ‘a nice job in the office is what you need…security and all that’. But that’s another subject for another time.

Let’s all turn instead if we will to p131 of the current Lion catalogue - what IS it about that page that so depresses me? Not forgetting that I’m well over 50 years old myself, here you have a bunch of what looks like mostly retired folk having a crack at picture framing – learning all those ‘basic skills’ of how to knock up a frame using, no doubt, one of a sample range of Lion’s factory finished mouldy. And this is I have say is the face of framing that I find really rather depressing – an income generation idea targeted to old farts with perhaps nothing whatsoever in the way of artistic background or skill. Never mind learning the real craft of framing, just set yourself up with ‘professional equipment’ take a days course or two and before you know it you’ll be banging out all those hundreds of Ikea inspired frames. What young person coming across p131 in the Lion catalogue would ever think that picture framing is a cool thing to do? Which, incidentally, it most certainly is.

[Glimpse]

Cuthbert, I have 3 separate businesses. I get satisfaction from running businesses successfully - to be honest, there aren't many jobs where the work doesn't become 'mundane' after a while, no matter how varied it might seem on the face of it. If you're paid to dust powder onto the butt-cheeks of Victoria's Secret models, there WILL come a time when you get bored of it... Eventually.

So personally, I don't see the actual act of making a frame, designing something, producing an illustration, or dusting butt cheeks as the point of satisfaction. For me, it's building up a successful business and enjoying the trappings that success brings that gives me that warm fuzzy feeling... Or maybe that's just the thought of Victoria's Secret models...

[prospero]

How many times has an interesting a challenging project come along and it all goes swimmingly and you enjoy doing it?

Then the customer wants three more.

Not quite so enjoyable.

After that it's gets to hard work and seem to take forever.


Oh, it's right about the powdering job. It gets very tedious.

[cuthbert]

Well, horses for courses Glimpse, but I would still far sooner hand finish those butt cheeks than allow Lion and the like to speed things up and possibly cut corners. (factory finished AND using a chop service - I mean, what is the point of calling yourself a framer then?!)

[vintage frames]

Ok, I'm sorry if I appear to denigrate the work of picture framing within my described catagory 1.
I was simply trying to establish some parameters to apply to the argument of good taste in framing. If framing is done in say, catagory 1 with skill and enthusiasm and not just dismissed as something needing done to earn a living, then the work achieved has value and satisfaction for both framer and customer.
The danger lies when the framer puts too high a value on the aesetics of this method of framing. Worse still when he takes on artwork that properly belongs in either of the two higher catagories. The artwork is instantly devalued and often vandalised.
Repeating my earlier metaphor, I am often in awe to the skills of a good builder; in his blockwork and smooth plastering.
Such a builder would be hopeless within an historic building scheme where a knowledge of lime mortars and practice is essential.
And lets not dismiss framers who work in the two higher catagories as heads in the clouds. You only get to make a living in that sphere by years of hard graft, artistic ambition and lots of balls. I'ts not a closed shop, anyone can do it. It just needs some aspiration and interest.
So more posts on REAL framing!

[Glimpse]

The danger lies when the framer puts too high a value on the aesetics of this method of framing. Worse still when he takes on artwork that properly belongs in either of the two higher catagories. The artwork is instantly devalued and often vandalised.

That is utter twaddle! The sort of self-righteous guff perpetuated by people that think a FATG sticker elevates them to a higher plane!

Framing isn't rocket science. And any framer with a modicum of knowledge can frame to conservation standard. I'd venture to say that those who follow 'good working practices' certainly don't pose any risk to the artwork!

I think some people have rather too high an opinion of themselves and what they do!