CMC's ..... Which One

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Sat 26 Mar, 2005 9:19 pm

Hi John
Noticed from a previous thread that you have a Wizard. I am currently looking at getting one

Looked at the Valiani and the Wizard. Huge price difference though

Which works the best ?

Million dollar question I know

Any help would be appreciated please

Post by **John** » Mon 28 Mar, 2005 2:03 pm

Hi John,

Yes, we had a Wizard until about a year ago when a fire destroyed it, and our entire business, almost a year ago.

Before installing the machine, I had a very frustrating time trying to obtain accurate dimensions from Wizard in order to prepare a space for it. In fact I never did get a satisfactory response from them in this matter. Over my period of ownership, I often felt that I was viewed as a valued customer, though sometimes not.

I miss the CMC a lot, and hope to replace it one day.

When trying to rationalize the purchase of a CMC, don’t start thinking that you will make a fortune cutting fancy mounts, or that more than one in a hundred of your customers will be in the least impressed by its phenomenal abilities. Rather, see it as the equivalent of another half pair of hands in the workshop. It really does make mount cutting a breeze. The fact that it will do a complicated job with almost as little effort as a simple one is a bonus, but is not in itself a justification for the expense involved.

I liked the Wizard because of its price, and also because the standard machine will take a jumbo size mountboard.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Mon 28 Mar, 2005 5:29 pm

Thankyou John. Interesting comment. I have been trying now for the past two months to get an accurate 'bed size' for the wall mounted version from Sam at Wizard. I have a limited space where I think it will go. Comments like. "Unsure, will get back to you" , "Will email you the dimensions" etc. Still waiting...

Your comments are noted and understood. but at £13,500 all in or £3800 per year to rent. Lots of money.

The Valiani 120, does the same job, yet is only £8500, I have a spare PC as it doesnt come with one.

Hopefully this forum will produce some more replies. I saw both demonstrated at the trade fair and asked a few questions, but came away still undecided as to which one..

markw · Post by **markw** » Mon 28 Mar, 2005 6:44 pm

Hi Merlin
having spent the entire weekend reconfiguring my workshop i have hopefully made space for the Valiani 120 that should arrive early April. fortunatly i have plenty of space - even though its always cluttered. I had originally intended to have the Valiani in an upright position but was advised that it was better to have it flat (ish). I went for the Valiani purely on the basis that their mountcutters have had a good reputation for reliability for many years - the old mat pro was half way to being a cmc years before the real thing came on the market - and the price was right. I rarely cut jumbo boards so the smaller size seemed to be a sensible choice - i hope ive made the right decision. on the plus side so far, its forced me to completly reoganise the space i have - i had to move my moulding racks and so have culled huge amounts of warped - short length or damaged mouldings, some of it having used space for many years - it hurts to throw away so much stock but i have to face the fact that it was useless. i manged to fill the back of my estate car with the bits - it will keep me warm for a short while next winter.

Keith Hewitt · Post by **Keith Hewitt** » Wed 13 Apr, 2005 4:55 am

John,

If you go to

www.custompictureframing.com

and click on Comparison guide for Computerised Mat cutters.

There is a lot of impartial and useful info for anyone thinking of buying a CMC.

Hope this helps you and others.

Keith Hewitt

Post by **John** » Wed 13 Apr, 2005 5:57 am

Hi Keith,

Welcome aboard. and thanks for the tip. There are many other useful picture framing links on this site. For example, if you click on Comparison Guide: Frame shop POS software it will take you to a similar table comparing just about all the Picture Framing/Gallery software available worldwide.

James Miller · Post by **James Miller** » Sun 17 Apr, 2005 2:24 am

My CMC is a Fletcher F-6100, which was discontinued about six months after I bought it. However, I must say Fletcher has kept their promise of support. If anything, they've gone overboard to answer questions and keep their customers happy. In over three years, the machine has functioned very well, needing only an occasional cleaning and fresh cutting blades. I would not go without a CMC now, and have no desire to trade my Fletcher.

Wizard is the leading machine in the USA, and maybe everywhere else, as well. It is a good machine and well marketed. Eclipse is #2 in the USA, and there is no recognizable #3 at present.

Fletcher introduced their Valiani partnership at the New York DecorExpo in March. If I were in the market for a new CMC, I would buy the entry-level Valiani for about US$13,000. I watched it cut a circle less than 1/4" diameter in standard 4-ply matboard! I do not know of any machines other than the Valianis capable of that feat. My jaw dropped as it hummed through the motion flawlessly.

What's most impressive to me about the Fletcher/Valiani line is that they cover every segment of the framing industry. Presumably the same machines are available throughout Europe.

They have an excellent high-production machine in the GTO model, which cuts one mat while another is being staged at the other end of the table -- very fast, and built like a tank.

The two mid-level machines are economized versions of the GTO, but still far exceed the requirements of small shop framers like me.

The entry level machine is a further economized and smaller version, but it shares the advanced technology of the others, such as excellent, adaptable software and that tiny-circle capability...I still can't get over that.

That said, one should also consider the availability of supplies, parts, and technical support. Whatever machine is most readily available in your region might be the best choice.

markw · Post by **markw** » Mon 18 Apr, 2005 8:07 am

James
your reply is very reassuring as i await delivery on the entry level Valiani. There have been some interesting comments in the trade mags recently, as a very small framing business investing in a cmc - even at the lower costs of newer machines, is a big investment. The positive comments helping to calm my doubts.

Fletcher dont market the Valiani in the UK - its done by a company called Perigrine. Before i became a picture framer i used to be the computer systems manager within a graphic repro company, hopefully my ability to use graphics will help to get the best out of the machine - I cant wait to get my hands on it.

Sam Cook · Post by **Sam Cook** » Fri 29 Apr, 2005 11:25 am

Hi Everyone

This is my first post on this site, and as the UK and Ireland supplier of the Wizard CMC I thought joining this topic would be a good place to start! I'm not going to start raving on about how wonderful the Wizard is because this is not what the forum is for, but I would like to just correct a misunderstanding mentioned earlier regarding the Wizard price, it is currently £11,500 including PC delivery & training. For full information please e-mail me or look on our website www.framerscorner.co.uk

I appreciate that deciding which CMC to buy can be a bit of a minefield and it is possibly the biggest purchase your framing business will make. I would advise you to be very clear about what you expect to achieve from your CMC. Ask yourself questions such as what kind of designs do I want to produce? how easy is the design software to use? how many mounts will I be cutting?, who will be using the machine? what sizes of board will I use?, how good is the after sales service and software support & development? When talking to prospective customers I always ask lots of questions because I always want to understand what the customer wants & that the Wizard will be able to deliver those needs, at the end of the day if I don't think the Wizard is the CMC for their needs then I have to be honest about it to save everyone grief in the long run! Finally if you want reassurance you are making the right decision talk to existing customers to get their opinion. I hope this may help some of you.

Sam

Framing Norah · Post by **Framing Norah** » Fri 29 Apr, 2005 12:20 pm

Hi Sam,

Welcome to the forum.

It is nice to see someone from the supplier's side of the fence participating.

Don't be a stranger.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Fri 29 Apr, 2005 6:14 pm

Hi Sam
Welcome to the Forum. As FN says really good to have a supplier onboard.

I will admit that it was me who put the figures up earlier on. Maybe it was my misunderstanding and I added VAT to the prices you gave me at the NEC.

Yes the Valiani 120 works out at roughly £3000 cheaper. For me, I already have the spare computer. Do I really need to cut Jumbo boards, no I do not.
Both machines only have one head that cuts only bevel edges, so I would need to get a 90 degree cutter, so the difference in price would enable me to do that.

I will sit down again with both specs and the ABT report and really see where the difference lies.

Keep on talking to us.

Post by **John** » Fri 29 Apr, 2005 8:24 pm

John,

I know that comparing the 'standard' Valiani with the 'Jumbo' Wizard is difficult. But you will be surprised at how often you will be cutting Jumbo mounts once you are able to do so with ease.

Now that I no longer have that ability, I rarely 'have' to do it. Probably because it is now unlikely that you will hear me using language like "What you need madam, is a good substantial mount around that large etching of yours." (The sort of statement that fluently tripped off my toungue when I knew that cutting even the largest size was a breeze.)

Framing Norah · Post by **Framing Norah** » Tue 28 Jun, 2005 10:16 pm

Any chance of an update Mark.

How are you getting along with your CMC?

Any Regrets?

markw · Post by **markw** » Wed 29 Jun, 2005 8:20 am

FN
No regrets - CMC is working well - like all machines you have to understand its little ways. It's changed the way we look at mountcutting - no job seems to be too complicated and we look at design from a different perspective. Good example of the ability to cut anything - I frame a lot of rugby - football shirts. I always cut a shaped former to fit inside the shirt - i have now got a shape on file that cuts out a former - having made up the shape in Coral Draw and imported it into the valiani software shape library.

kaptain.kopter · Post by **kaptain.kopter** » Mon 12 Mar, 2007 2:45 pm

The debate over which cmc has raised it's head again on other threads. As a newcomer to the industry, I bought a reconditioned manual Smart SM6040.
The thinking behind this was that it was advertised as being completely upgradeable to a pneumatic head and then a fully fledged cmc.
I must say it has been an excellent purchase and would recommend it as a manual cutter. I haven't heard of anyone else on the forum who has one and was wondering why.
Has anyone upgraded any Smart cutters, or is it better to sell on and go down the Wizard, Valiani and Gunnar route.

Post by **John** » Mon 12 Mar, 2007 3:10 pm

I have noticed the Speed Mat mentioned on the Grumble a few times, it might be worthwhile doing a search there.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Mon 12 Mar, 2007 7:56 pm

John wrote:I have noticed the Speed Mat mentioned on the Grumble a few times, it might be worthwhile doing a search there.

I bought a Speedmat many years ago and used it in preference to the standard Fletcher/C & H etc. because of the ease and speed of use.
I have only heard of one framer who bought a "Smart" brand CMC and he was not happy with it.
I have a Gunnar Rapido which is about 9 years old now and would recommend this brand to anyone.
My advice to anyone buying a CMC would be to only consider Gunnar or Wizard, but preferably Gunnar. I wouldn't touch the others with a barge pole!

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Mon 12 Mar, 2007 8:01 pm

Oh dear osgood

I wouldn't touch the others with a barge pole!

What others are you referring to please and WHY?

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Mon 12 Mar, 2007 8:10 pm

John,
I think that you will find that both Gunnar and Wizard cut at 45 degrees. I'm told that Valiani cuts at something like 60 degrees which gives a narrower bevel appearance, which I don't like.

The two brands I mentioned are the biggest and have a long track record. This is important to consider because I would always want the best possible chance of the maker being around for a long time. Some brands of CMC have already been consigned to history.

Just my opinions on how to select a CMC brand!

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Mon 12 Mar, 2007 8:57 pm

Ormond
What you were told about the Valiani was wrong. The standard head cuts at 42 degs. The difference between 42 and 45 is hardly noticeable at all.

I agree it is imortant to look at track records, but it is equally important to look at the software package and the engineering.

The software is quite easy. You just download a demo package and 'play' with it, whilst bearing in mind that it just may be quite a versions removed from what is 'actual' today. Do not be swayed by all the 'bells and whistles' that are available. Yes they look really good and sort of handy to have 'in the back pocket' for the one day that they may be asked for. Remember that you will be paying for this as well.

The engineering. You really need to get to a trade show. Listen, watch and learn from the various sales presenters. Also go with a mount design in mind and ask them to reproduce it - whilst you wait.

Not only is the cost of the machine important, but also the after sales, the availability of a 'hot help line'.

After 18 months of searching, looking, questioning and weighing up the cost..... out right purchase vs lease... I will admit that I went for the Valiani. I have not been let down.

Interesting side note that Fletcher(USA) have also taken on the Valiani CMC's as well. So they cannot be that bad.

The Framers Forum

CMC's ..... Which One

CMC's ..... Which One

Lots of useful info here