Valiani Matstylus opinions sought

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JamesC
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Valiani Matstylus opinions sought

Post by JamesC »

Hi all.

Anyone got a Valiani cmc-ix and using the Mat Stylus?

I am weighing up between a Gunnar F1 hybrid and a Valiani at the mo. The Valiani has the pen option which appeals to me a lot for personalising and signing mounts for photographers and artists.

The Gunnar's trump card is that it has automatic depth adjustment and dual integrated 90 and 45 degree cuts so no switching blades on square edged mounts or changing blade depths.

Otherwise both machines can make boxes - my other big hope from the machine as I send out a lot of parcels.

Gunnar rep told me today they gave up on the pen/stylus options because it's limtied by the quality of the pen and they don't want to offer anything that isn't top quality e.g. blobbing of ink at the start. The MD is apparently very firm on that so none in the pipeline.

This makes me wonder if the Valiani Matstylus really is going to work as promised. Obviously I need to go see one in action before you say it, but Spring Fair has just gone and I live in the north where showrooms don't exist. So while I will journey south eventually I suspect, I wanted to get some general opinions. My main pen aim is to be able to reproduce small signatures with a pencil for photographers/artists - nothing too fancy, though lining mounts would be useful if it can do it. I can always emboss peoples logos and the like instead (is the debossing any good?)

I mainly frame the mounts I produce but it would be nice to build a bigger "mount only" trade up too. For that puprose the Gunnar may well edge it but it looks like being a couple of grand more outlay to begin with. Anybody got the Valiani and finding head changes a pain and wish they had the uninterrupted F1 hybrid?

All opinions welcome on the stylus and/or general suitability of each machines. Also generally whether fancy mounts in themselves have much demand/commercial potential? Anybody think CMCs are a temptation to waste money on fancy kit that should be resisted?

For me these extra facilities of boxmaking, embossing and drawing are probably as big a motivation for getting one as the mountcutting. If it only cut mounts I wouldn't get one at the prices they are. I think the Wizard and Trucut are ruled out because they aren't as versatile but open to persuaion. Trucut didn't even answer my web enquiry and have a poor website so been put off them for that too.
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Merlin
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Re: Valiani Matstylus opinions sought

Post by Merlin »

James
We have PM'd quite a lot over the past few months, so you know my thoughts.

As posted in the Announcement section, Ashworth & Thompson are having a Valiani CMC day on Wednesday 30th June 2010.

There will be a full demonstration of all the cutting heads, the emboss head and the MatStylus Deluxe Pen head.
Come on down and see for yourself. It maybe a 4 hour round trip, yet it could save the wait until SF2011 and you would get your answer.

One question I will ask you. If you frame the mounts then why would you need a 90 degree outside cut, surely a bevel outside cut would do?

However, I am sure other CMC users will add their experience in reply to you in due course
John GCF
Nigel Nobody

Re: Valiani Matstylus opinions sought

Post by Nigel Nobody »

JamesC wrote: The Gunnar's trump card is that it has automatic depth adjustment and dual integrated 90 and 45 degree cuts so no switching blades on square edged mounts or changing blade depths.
Not having to swap heads or manually take care of the depth adjustments would be an extraordinary time saver. I recently checked out the new Gunnar software in Melboune and was amazed at the changes they have made. It has so many new features that make it easier to drive. New features like being able to rotate a real 3D view of the mat you are creating, merging and overlaying shapes and being able to draw directly onto the screen without any external software, are my favourites.

I want an F1 hybrid!
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JamesC
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Re: Valiani Matstylus opinions sought

Post by JamesC »

Nigel Nobody, Thanks for the reply. I think on another thread I read you have a trusty old Rapido. Valiani magnetic head change takes 30 seconds and depth adjustment on a simple easy to read knob - is it still going to be a biggy?

John/Merlin - yes thanks it's not far away now the demo which is handy, going to see if I can make it. Do I need to book with A&T?
Also yes I'm not envisaging needing 90 degree cuts combined that often to begin with but may in the future want to expand the mount only business or sell ready wrapped mounted prints (I already do some). Is the 40 degree head shallower or steeper than the normal 45 degrees? If steeper is it then less sharp and likely to cut. Also do you know if the yellow foamboard cutter 90 degree head will also cut matboard (i.e do I need both if I buy the boxmaker kit with yellow and violet head)? I personally think no customer will care if the bevel is 40 or 45 so just hoping to get the green for bevels. The rear one only if I have problems with my mountboards tearing.

Thanks again.
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Merlin
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Re: Valiani Matstylus opinions sought

Post by Merlin »

Not wishing to take over your thread. Yet to quickly answer.
See the announcement section.
Head change is less than 30 seconds. How many times do you envisage changing the blade depth per working day. I suspect not many. Plus FMD will advise you what depth to set.
The Valiani web site has all the information you require. Have a look at :
http://www.valiani.com/accessories_detail.php?ID=1
for details on the various heads. I use the Yellow head for ALL my 90 cuts.
John GCF
Roboframer

Re: Valiani Matstylus opinions sought

Post by Roboframer »

I have a Valiani. I've seen the Mat Stylus in action and it's very capabale - not as quick to change over as the other heads though. I'd like one but I'd like to learn Coreldraw first - maybe I could have done that before I bought the Val :?

Head changes are no problem for me - I only 90 degree cut the outside if I am not framing the mount and in 9 out of 10 cases it will be from an offcut which I'll probably cut to size on the wall cutter anyway. If it's lots of mounts from one board then you only have to change the head once, not per mount.

If you did this on a large scale then the gunnar would have an advantage.

Auto blade depth is nice but turning a dial is dead easy (after you've told the computer what type of board you are using of course) If you were doing lots of double mounts with one 8 ply and one 4 ply then the gunnar would have an advantage (assuming it can cut a double/triple mount in the same way as the Val :?: )

The embossing head is great - 3 different sizes of embossing tool which are simple to change - one of my best selling designs is 5 lines 1.5mm apart (about 10mm out from the aperture) and another heavier one about 5mm out from those.

Today I had to screw two large frames to a larger mount/backing which were bonded together - (IOW float them) imagine the headaches of centreing that and screwing from the back!

I just embossed the size of the frame (to the centre of the moulding) and then embossed a single short line to the dead centre of the top and bottom lines, drilled holes through the boards along the embossed line about 6" apart and including those two centre marks, drilled pilot holes in the top and bottom of the frame, dead centre, lined those up, put those two screws in from underneath, flipped the lot over and put the rest of the screws through the holes I'd made :D

JamesC wrote:whether fancy mounts in themselves have much demand/commercial potential? Anybody think CMCs are a temptation to waste money on fancy kit that should be resisted?
Why buy a Morso when you can get a hand mitre saw from B&Q for £29.99! The difference in quality, accuracy and ease between those is about the same for a pro manual mount cutter and a CMC.

As for demand - I'm pretty nifty at washlines and sell plenty, but I'm rarely asked for them - just like I'm never asked for museum glass and a whole load of other things.

You can create your own demand depending on your personal skill and/or level of equipment. Think of a CMC as a very specialised employee. If CMCs didn't exist and someone applied for a job and showed you some mounts cut by hand with little bunny rabbits etc cut out of them, then said it only took 5 minutes - would that be a fancy employee that should be resisted?
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Jared Davis CPF, GCF
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Re: Valiani Matstylus opinions sought

Post by Jared Davis CPF, GCF »

Hi JamesC,

It's great to see you are doing your research, asking questions and comparing different options. I’ve been the Gunnar CMC product manager in Australia for over 12 years, and I strongly encourage this of anyone thinking about a CMC.

First, please allow me to recommend that you get a close up, hands on, real “one on one” demonstration on “any” CMC you are considering buying, before you buy, and know what is really involved before assuming what's written on a brochure, or spoken by a salesman, is as simple as it may seem.
The MD (sic – CEO of Gunnar) is apparently very firm on that, so none in the pipeline.
In Gunnar's defense, please allow me to point out the old "Swiss-German attitude and passion" which dictates; "If we can't do it perfectly, then we don't do it at all. Compromise may be good enough for others, but not for us."

In saying this, I don’t want to create an argument with other CMC owners, who will no doubt reply with the predictable “Are you saying my CMC is not perfect!!” response….. No I’m not. However, no one can argue with the fact that something that what may be “perfect” in the eyes of some, may not be “perfect” in the eyes of others…. all that matters is what you, yourself, are personally happy with the result. End of story.

Aside from this, pen tools for matboards is not a “new” concept for CMC technology in our industry , ie: Zund first came up with this concept for CMC's over 10 years ago, around the same time Roland came out with their DesignLine plotter as well - but this "pen concept" has now become outdated technology, because of the ease of being able to just printing direct onto a matboard, with an affordable wide format printer. (eg: Epson Pro Graphics 7880/9880)… which has been growing stronger in the last 5 or so years.

So, if you really want to seriously consider plotting/printing words, signatures, logos and even photo quality images on matboard, then you also need to consider the "real" option these of using a wide format printer. Hundreds of framing businesses in Australia have all gone down this route, with great success.... It creates and eye catching, original, professional looking product, created in a cost effective manner, especially for memorabilia.

Regarding plotting reproduced signatures on mats for photographers – ask them first, and see if a market for this really does exist – and it’s not just a defunct idea? I know many photographers across Australia, and have asked this question directly of them myself, and what I found is that any photographer with credibility would rather personally sign a mat by hand, rather than mass produce an obvious imitation, degrading the value of their brand. But don’t believe me, ask them yourself.

If you want to use a pen tool to print a design, clipart, signature or logo onto a matboard with a CMC tool option, it's not just about "how long it takes to change the tool head and set it up"... (which does need to be considered with the pen tool if you are changing pens/inks), but you also need to consider the time it takes to convert the desired file (eg: corporate logo, clipart, etc) from a jpeg to a vector , making it a recognizable cut file in Corel Draw, and any extra simplification and clean up work that may be involved, including test runs first too. Whereas if you just print it direct onto the matboard, work directly from the original source file and print it straight out.

So if you are going to eventually “travel south” and get a demo – I suggest you “keep it real” and take a jpeg logo or file with you, and see firsthand what’s involved in converting this to a real plot file, right to the end result on the matboard, and then see how you feel about what’s involved.

In conclusion, my final point is this – If you are serious about printing/plotting on matboard, why be limited to printing in a single line thickness, in a single colour, with an optional pen tool, when you can just print in a full colour gamut, in true HD photo quality, direct onto the matboard quicker and faster, with no real files conversion required? ....

I don’t know what prices are over there in the UK, but maybe compare the price of the optional Pen Tool with an Epson Pro Graphics 7880 or similar – and ask yourself which option offers more "bang for buck"?

Cheers,

Jared Davis, MCPF, GCF
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JamesC
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Re: Valiani Matstylus opinions sought

Post by JamesC »

Thanks Robo and John, all very useful information

I don't have big business for mounts only yet just trying to think about future proofing and being optimistic about getting smallish contracts work or building up a steady web trade.

It's one of them cases to be ultracompetitive on that kind of work the Gunnar would help but I'd probably just put the hours in myself when I needed and cope with a slightly smaller margin until it became obvious an upgrade was needed - which would probably be to a more production machine anyway than even the hybrid.

I am just cautious too because a contract framer near me went bust a few years ago (I bought one of my web domains from him and my speed-mat cutter) with a Zund CMC that cost £50k and all sorts of kit (at least 60k still owing on plant at liquidation I know because he tried to sell me the business). It was partly China taking work but think he maybe got carried away and I don't want to do the same but I don't think the situation or figures are quite equivocal (he was working down from a time of having 18 or so staff way back). I also know my turnover has now hit the point his was in his final year (which was an improvement on his penultimate year). I didn't even own a house when he offered me the business so needless to say I didn't want to take on a loan for £60k + of framing equipment and 4 staff!

Your points are very valid and I've never heard a CMC owner say they regret buying it yet so I'm probably fairly safe to spend £12k or so now and I'm paying my new mortgage comfortably too so priorities in order. Need to keep progressing I feel and the CMC seems like the next thing - scary as the price tag is.

Luckily my main framer already is a tecchie/web designer and I believe uses Corel Draw, also great at wash lines, a real useful chap - sadly not great at carving bunnies but you can't win 'em all! I can use allegedly more advanced programs like Photoshop and Illustrator so am hopeful it won't be too much of a stretch for me either. I think we would get a lot out of a CMC between us and we also print here. Funnily I would be happy if the thing just could scribble a pencil signature - that would look great combined with an embossed logo. And yes as you have shown with the float frame the possibilities are very broad. Unfortunately I don't have a shop so it's harder to push things. Online it's not quite the same impact and people are more driven by price. I do plan to reel in more photographers with logoed signed mounts and neat presentation boxes though. I also look forward to reducing waste and turning offcuts into small photo mounts almost instantly rather than sitting in the workshop unloved because it's uneconomical to hand finish them.
stcstc

Re: Valiani Matstylus opinions sought

Post by stcstc »

i have recently gone through the same choice as you now are going through

I looked at the 4 main cmc's on the market

My market would be semi-pro and pro photographers generally

I discounted 2 of the machines the first time, which left me with the valiani and the gunnar

i worked out that the valiani was gonna cost me more up front than the gunnar, by quite a large amount

I decided to rent the machine rather than buy, as buying it after a period of time worked out cheaper than borrowing the money from the bank

the other plus point of renting is, being able to just give it back if things went pear shaped or you dont get on with the machine.

my other reason choosing the gunnar was having played with both i felt the software was better on the gunnar, it felt more user friendly and spent less time jumping from other programs to the mat software.
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JamesC
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Re: Valiani Matstylus opinions sought

Post by JamesC »

stcstsc- cheers - funny because at jumbo size I'm finding the Valiani cheaper. Not sure if currencies have changed or ones just reduced price. I seem to think the Gunnar deposit/rental set-up charges are less, but Valiani is cheaper cash price. I'm thinking of scraping the money together in one lump. I need to confirm with my accountant but as I'm flat rate VAT registered that way I can definitely get the VAT back (must spend over £2000) and hoping with the current government investment allowance of 100% (please don't take it away tories if it hasn't epxired already) I can then write it all of against tax and pay minimal income tax this year. May need to take small loan off a family member until this years Xmas rush.

Jared - Thanks for the advice and you are right this cannot be an impulsive purchase though from research I have inherent trust in the two top brands to a degree. I used to have a Epson 10600 printer. I'm well versed in digital print but it would seem much easier to not have to move the mountboard between machines and worry about lining up, etc. Unfortunately for that end I now have an HPz3100 which doesn't take thick media as well as the Epsons (it's better in other ways but there is another can of worms). I have often thought about printing paper and laminating it to mountboard before cutting but that's going to be another hassle/expensive. You can't beat a pencil for longevity and authenticity on a signature and can't beat having it all on one machine - subject to it working. I listen to my photographer clients, including those who sign mounts, and while they have to exude an heir of quality and high standards, if you can drop ship for them a family portrait pre-signed so it doesn't look manufactured or printed and they don't have to lift a finger and it is cheaper I wouldn't bet against them choosing that option in private. An expensive limited edition artwork may well be different but in that case maybe the print is the best thing to sign anyway and if they are coming in to sign 200 moutns I'm a lot happier to see (usually wait for) them. My lack of ability to hotfoil or personalise mounts has been a bar to framing work in the past and photographers tell me how they want one place they can go for it all. Like I want the one machine that can do it all, if I'm spending that much money, and it is available.

It's not a done deal yet though I do need to see them in action and the software.
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