Researching CMCs

[Graysalchemy]

I would have said online mount sales is cut throat and as J2M says the cost of developing a website may be prohibative. What you need is a unique and exclusive product or niche market.

[GeoSpectrum]

As a matter of interest which machine are you favouring?

On balance I prefer Gunnar and the F1-M Hybrid.

[Framerpicture]

I find myself pricing against Carters mounts http://www.cartersmounts.co.uk/abulkprice.html all the time and although its possible to make a profit,its marginal and you really need some volume.

I would look for lightly used second hand machine- all makes seem very reliabe

[Graysalchemy]

My arqadia rep today showed me a website of one of his customers. This guy has set up an all singing and dancing online bespoke framing website. He employs a web designer full time to maintain and promote the site. He has opened up a industrial unit for his production bought a saw under pinner etc. We reckoned he must have spent the best part of 100k on the project plus the staff to go with it. But when you look at his prices you wonder how he is going to make a profit.

If I where you I would create the demand first, find yourself a niche market and make use of the services of one of us with a cmc to begin with, then after a few months see if you can justify a machine.

For what it is worth there are some good second hand machines about. My Trucut is probable the oldest CMC in the UK but will give any valiani and Gunner a run for its money twin headed very fast and very solidly built. I picked up second hand then spent more on it refurbishing it but it is as good as the day it left the factory back in 1990's.

[kev@frames]

the cmc is just a tool, don't want to shatter anyones illusions, but unless you are just dabbling, it will be the very least of your expenses if you want to sell online even half seriously.

Online selling, of almost anything, these days requires at least the same investment of time and money and marketing as any other new venture or business expansion, plus there is a large set of extra skills you need unless you want to pay for them (SEO, web management, analytics, tracking, CRO etc) then the packing materials which swallow up vast amounts of room. return handling, delivery, the distance selling regulations to comply with. GS1 membership and licensing if you wish to use GTINs or barcodes....

Its 10pm and I'm in my shop typing this while the wizard is cutting mats. I'll finish at 11 or midnight, and (hopefully) my colleague mark will be in at 7am to carry on, although its unlikely as he has been in Asia for the past four weeks and doesn't get back to Cornwall till the early hours.

So if its busy, you need staff. if its not busy you still have to pay them. And you do not know what size orders will come in over night on top of what you can usually predict, which often ties in with the weather in various parts of the country or the time of year - if it rains they go shopping online....

I would want to be the last one to dampen anyone's enthusiasm about branching out into online sales, but mats are saturated.
You know Moores law - processors doubling their power every two years, well apply that to people buying CMCs and trying to set up online.
yes its cut throat at the bottom end, but nowhere near as bad as you'd think. Some of us have even been known to socialise.
It was much simpler and easier for those of us who set up online ten or twelve years ago, and believe it or not built up mount cutting as a good part of the business long before we got CMCs. Much less competition, and we got to the top of google and pretty much all the people you see on page one, nine out of ten have been there for years. Whatever anyone says, google isn't the be-all and end all, you have to do proper marketing as well.
If you are buying a CMC simply to go online, and sell mounts and nothing else, you might make a bit extra.
But my honest advice is don't make it the reason to buy a CMc unless you already have a serious online business plan, then buy a cmc when you need the extra production capacity.
Thats pretty much what they were invented for.
fancy stuff, letter mats, cut art and drawing all came later.
Although I think there is a niche for specialised mount decoration perhaps.
SteveN has collared the market in designer mats, literally cutting art into mounts. I saw a buddah he cut the other week when I was at his place, and it blew me away. It was a picture in it's own right.
Ebay is fine for getting rid of all your shyte, but there are people on there who are so low priced cutting mounts that you wouldn't want to bother, even if you got the board free, let alone at pallet prices.

But having said all that, online is the direction to go, the online market isn't going to contract, its still in growth, although the online mats market is what you could call "mature" now.

Any help?

PS. I don't price against or compare my prices with anyone. I set them to get as much as I can in the present market, if someone wants cheaper, they'll find it very easily, as I am pretty much the most expensive, becaue there are enoughh people in the markets I sell in who don't bother looking for the lowest price, and always have never been cheap, and my first wizard cut 1.5 million mats, I'm now on my third since 2006. So there's Definitely a market there, but for every five CMCs that sell, I'd bet four people think they are going to be King of the Internet next year

[lurcher]

That WAS a good post.

Its like the old saying about jumping on the band wagon and the train having left the station etc.

I have loads of stuff and am considering a CMC .BUT.....................

its my hobby, I do it because I enjoy it.

I make the dosh from vehicle electronics to fund the hobby.

To be honest, I could not see where the money is in this industry!
BE CAREFUL !
[advice from someone who has been self employed for 44 years]

[GeoSpectrum]

This (as usual) has been very informative and thanks for the honest advice. I see a CMC as a integral part of the bespoke business and not just a tool to 'get on line' with, in truth I am not in a position yet to service a serious online presence however I want to be ready when I am, so I see the CMC as an investment for the future and If I can pay for one now when I have a healthy income, it will be easier for me when I go full time and take the inevitable drop in income.

For what it is worth there are some good second hand machines about.

I have been thinking about leasing a new one but if anyone knows of a used CMC I might be interested. I haven’t seen many around though; perhaps I’m looking in the wrong places?

[Jonny2morsos]

Try Joe Odepoju at Simons. They sell new Valiani machines so may know of a customer who is upgrading.

The other distributors are probably worth trying as well. If they are aware of an interested party it might generate the sale of a new machine if they can help place a used one.

[Steve N]

I could not agree more with what Kev said, it's long hours both at the studio and on the computer (7 days a week) keep things up to date, both on the website and designing new cut art, testing new cuts, doing photo shoots, uploading photos to website, trying to stay ahead of the game. 7am start every day, computers turned on, check the inbox on the email, plan the orders and start cutting.....

[kev@frames]

oh yeah, I forgot about all that side of it as well, all the R&D and new designs and that test cutting, and timing, and more test cuts, and nested test cuts that swallows up more time and materials.
Then someone copies it, to save themselves thinking at all or doing any work.
And then one or twice a month some clown on ebay steals your picture and uses it in his listing, invariably uses the excuse"i got it from google images" (pretending they think its an image bank) and you spend another hour on emails and VERO and DMCA complaints just because some twonk is too idle to take his own photo of his own products.
And then there is the time you spend on other website copyright infringements and DMCA stuff on a weekly basis, where they usually try and blame some non-existant "webmaster", and scraper-blogs that rip your content and pictures.
Literally not a week goes by without having to deal with this sort of stuff.

We ought to put a rogues' gallery of web sites and ebay sellers on here when we see intellectual property theft, in case they are using anyone elses images or content, because they probably will be. Make everyone's job who sells online a lot easier. Just a thought.

[Steve N]

Hey Kev,
When we put like that, you have to wonder why we even bother

But somebody has to

[GeoSpectrum]

oh yeah, I forgot about all that side of it as well, all the R&D and new designs and that test cutting, and timing, and more test cuts, and nested test cuts that swallows up more time and materials.
Then someone copies it, to save themselves thinking at all or doing any work.
And then one or twice a month some clown on ebay steals your picture and uses it in his listing, invariably uses the excuse"i got it from google images" (pretending they think its an image bank) and you spend another hour on emails and VERO and DMCA complaints just because some twonk is too idle to take his own photo of his own products.
And then there is the time you spend on other website copyright infringements and DMCA stuff on a weekly basis, where they usually try and blame some non-existant "webmaster", and scraper-blogs that rip your content and pictures.
Literally not a week goes by without having to deal with this sort of stuff.

We ought to put a rogues' gallery of web sites and ebay sellers on here when we see intellectual property theft, in case they are using anyone elses images or content, because they probably will be. Make everyone's job who sells online a lot easier. Just a thought.

So its quite doable then?.....

[kev@frames]

Why do we do it? I dunno, thinking about it.
It certainly was a lot easier from a printed catalogue and paying for a few press ads in exchange and mart or daltons, the guardian and freeAds, people would even send you a stamped addressed envelope for a catalogues.
Parcelforce got stuff there without mangling it or losing it.... one catalogue lasted all year, and people sent cheques and postal orders.... and cash in the post.
You couldn't imagine it now. Seems almost quaint and edwardian in hindsight.
ahh, the rose tinted visor....

[Steve N]

Oh those Halcyon Days Kev

[Bagpuss]

What a fantastic post Kev You really have "blown the gaff" with regards to online mat selling . I have this dream of getting up about 9am, strolling downstairs in my dressing gown, checking my online orders on my laptop over breakfast, strolling out to the Workshop, loading up some mountboard, packing them up and then driving round to the Post Office .....
back to the drawing board then

Thanks anyway though, very informative.
Adam/Bagpuss

[GeoSpectrum]

Well, I decided to bite the bullet and order the CMC. So a shiny new Gunnar F1-M Hybrid will be with me by early August. Hopefully I'll have things figured out for the Christmas rush! Now I just need the compressor and to make some workshop space.

Many thanks to everyone for thier sage advice.

[Steve N]

Forgot to mention, all the time it take to be compliant with all the regulations regarding selling on the internet, such as the Distance Selling Regulations. Such as what are your returns policy and your cancellation policy are they the minimum or better than the DSR, having your postage and packing rates on display on your site, an so on , and lets not forget the Cookies policy as well . Just as well this is my full time work, as I would not have time if I was only doing it part time