Striving for perfection?

Conservation Issues
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prospero
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Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by prospero »

It was only 3 foot 6 and I didn't have enough beans so one corner was alphabeti-spaggetti. :?
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Grahame Case

Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by Grahame Case »

Stop That It's Silly!

Image
Roboframer

Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by Roboframer »

I don't want to sound too nerdish - not that I'm not one or anything, just don't want to sound like one ...... but .......

This outgassing forum - bit of a laugh really isn't it? - This topic has been trashed and the ones below it were either short-lived, pretty uninformative, or both, or transferred from previous topics in other forums.

Just proves a point I made previous - the subject of conservation/reversibilty etc etc etc - comes up within so many others in hints and tips and general discussion - we don't need a separate one, especially with a derogatory (IMO) heading.

I think it best to hide the fact that is obvious here - (preservation is no big deal in the UK) not show the world - it could put serious framers off from joining us.

I think you will find!
Grahame Case

Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by Grahame Case »

my eightpenth worth

John, some of us do take the preservation of artwork seriously, and use materials that reflect that,

however, there are many others who simply have not got the demographic or wealth in their area to offer a totally preservation quality service - custonmers just wouldn't buy it. [i know Kev [hopw you don't mind a name check] has particular issues with people in his end of Cornwall being on low income and as such many of them can't afford the materials]

luckily we are one such framer who has people who want to pay a little bit more to have good quality materials and workmanship applied to their items, that doesn't mean to say that PH7-70 or similar should be outlawwed in our business because it is self adhesive. - this is miles better than masking tape or kraft tape.

we have paper hinges, - even then we would probably use photocorners instead and mylar strips, as they are completely removable and won't damage the paper

whats your thoughts,

is paper hinges and wheat startch really necessary for an open edition print? wouldn't PH7-70 suffice.. at the end of the day if it is mounted and backed with Alphamat products there shouldn't be a problem.


sorry if this is a bit disjointed. its hard to write coherently serveral beers down and after 1am,


i'm merely trying to point out we all don't live in the london commuter belt, its different in the rest of the country
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prospero
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Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by prospero »

Roboframer wrote:I don't want to sound too nerdish - not that I'm not one or anything, just don't want to sound like one ...... but .......

This outgassing forum - bit of a laugh really isn't it? - This topic has been trashed and the ones below it were either short-lived, pretty uninformative, or both, or transferred from previous topics in other forums.

Just proves a point I made previous - the subject of conservation/reversibilty etc etc etc - comes up within so many others in hints and tips and general discussion - we don't need a separate one, especially with a derogatory (IMO) heading.

I think it best to hide the fact that is obvious here - (preservation is no big deal in the UK) not show the world - it could put serious framers off from joining us.

I think you will find!

Just striving for perfection Dear. :oops:

Anyway it weren't me what started it. It wos all them others. :(
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WelshFramer
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Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by WelshFramer »

Customer came in with 3 pictures done by her children. They'd been pinned up in the kitchen for a while and were creased and dog-eared. What the heck, stuck 'em down to ArtCare Restore - that sorted them out.

Bet she'll wish she'd gone for museum-standard framing in 50 years' time when her children are famous. :(
Mike Cotterell
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Roboframer

Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by Roboframer »

Grahame Case wrote:..........who simply have not got the demographic or wealth in their area to offer a totally preservation quality service - custonmers just wouldn't buy it. ..........on low income and as such many of them can't afford the materials

is paper hinges and wheat startch really necessary for an open edition print? wouldn't PH7-70 suffice.. at the end of the day if it is mounted and backed with Alphamat products there shouldn't be a problem.
Roboframer wrote:Is there anything wrong with applying the 'best' techniques for most anything?

Especially seeing as they don't have to be the most expensive or time consuming and are usually the most effective?
Uncle Sumo
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Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by Uncle Sumo »

I thought we were talking about toated bread products?
Sean
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Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by WelshFramer »

Good news for those of who don't always use conservation materials in our framing. Just read this one the Grumble:
A friend of mine told me this morning that according to all the old soothsayers and such, that on December 21, 2012 the poles of the planet are supposed to shift. He claims that will pretty much wipe out life as we know it, here on earth.
So, our frames only need to last another 4 years. :D
Mike Cotterell
Neuadd Bwll Framing

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Roboframer

Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by Roboframer »

So all the Poles are going to move back to Poland? Can't see what harm that will do bar bugger up their economy!

I think we should just insert self-destruct devices in our frames - oh, sorry, forgot, some of us already do.
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prospero
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Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by prospero »

:D According to Nostradamus we all should have got the chop in 1999. :roll:
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kev@frames
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Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by kev@frames »

Grahame Case wrote:my eightpenth worth

John, some of us do take the preservation of artwork seriously, and use materials that reflect that,

however, there are many others who simply have not got the demographic or wealth in their area to offer a totally preservation quality service - custonmers just wouldn't buy it. [i know Kev [hopw you don't mind a name check] has particular issues with people in his end of Cornwall being on low income and as such many of them can't afford the materials]
the materials are an insignificant part of a frame price, Grahame! its the labour that SOME cant afford. As for the demographic this area has the highest house prices and cost of living outside of central london, and because of cornwall Newquay airport we ARE in the commuter belt, and a large percentage of my customers are second home owners here who work in london and the home counties.
A substantial part of my business is supplying customers within organisations like the BBC, Scottish Parliament, Google London, Marriott Hotels, Orient Express, City and District councils, Nokia, Canon, williams formula1 etc - and I dont think lack of funds is the issue with them ;)

We were offerering conservation framing in our business before most other people on this forum started in the business and the issues we have with people is when we try to sell them unecessary preservation quality framing.
Roboframer

Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by Roboframer »

Well this actually was unecessary preservation as the customer didn't give one on how I fixed the things in place. I just wanted to do it with no adhesive to gain the experience really. Don't remember the last time I framed a record.

It took far longer than I thought and all through I was thinking "The guy said I could stick it down"

The records are sitting in two separate circular mounts under the top one - I did two separate ones underneath so's I didn't have to plot two identical ones top and bottom. Those under-mounts fit the records perfectly and are cut at 90 degrees, the top mount has two circular reverse bevelled openings just smaller than the openings holding the records - behind both is artcare foam board and then corricor type stuff.

The large sleeve was a problem - could not use corners on the right because of the record and don't like them anyway - I never use the self adhesive ones and although I do use Jim Miller's repositionable ones, that pass through the mount and are secured on the back of it - I don't use them for floated objects and the record was in the way of where I'd have to make slits anyway.

I was a bit stumped - OK I could have used a 'book' type melinex mount - IOW one sheet over the record wrapped top to bottom passing through the mount and then one around that and the whole sleeve; not passing through the board, wrapped left to right to prevent lateral movement. But I didn't want that glossy look - esp on just the one item.

So I copped out a bit and rang the customer - would it be OK if I made two very small slits in the 'spine' of the sleeve. Duh - Yeah - whatever!

So I did and passed two 5mm strips of melinex through them and inside the sleeve top and bottom, through slits behind the sleeve and secured them at the back.

The bottom left sleeve isn't a sleeve - it's a badly cockled xerox of a sleeve! So I used pass-through hinges and even though it's a cheap photocopy I used Japanese paper and starch paste and I'll tell you why - apart from the fact that it's handy for me. Because if you use self adhesive tape, say FP90 and remove the release paper before passing through the slit, it's a bugger, and, if you keep the release paper on until you need to peel what you need off once passed through - that's a bugger too.

I know I could have used double sided tape backed up with a few spots of PVA too.

The bottom right record had a 'spider' centre so I secured it with 3 stitches, then, to make sure the sleeve did not slip down I used pass through hinges again, just two, under those little 'lugs you see at the top, secured to the inside front and then folded over the back, which is straight and not 'lugged' - so you don't see them.

9mm black econospace sets the whole thing back from the glass - and I forgot to charge for that too - well, forgot I'd need a spacer when I took the order. This should have cost more than a football shirt, but that's OK.

Have a stab at what I did charge and also one at what you'd charge (moulding about 70p per foot) - normal glass, glass size 26x26" - oh and a title apeture and a title that I printed.
kev@frames
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Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by kev@frames »

a stab: I'd be at about £90 to £100 i guess, till price, give or take (including VAT). I would guess prices round your way would put another 30 percent on that? But we do do a lot of records, so it would be a fairly quick job.


so, just curious, why ordinary glass? and how long dit it take? I'd give it half an hour.
Roboframer

Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by Roboframer »

OK - you do a lot of records, but is your price based on the way I did these? This is what I'm arksing - and how would you have done it in half an hour if different?

I actually charged £96 - but you are right - if I'd charged 'properly' it would have been more; probably 100% more - so then I'd have the dilema of customer walks or - enter stage left the ATG gun and glue bottle!

As for the glass, well if customer is happy with ATG and glue he's hardly going to go for UV/Museum glass, not that I didn't try.

It took - hands on - about two hours! And C'mon - half an hour for a bog standard print in a single mount in a frame that size would be good to fair. I'd do it (the print) in that easy - and if my framer could too I'd be over the moon! Could you really do it - mount and frame six items - the exact same way as I did (minus CMC) in half an hour?
Roboframer

Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by Roboframer »

Well?

:wondering:
kev@frames
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Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by kev@frames »

Well?

Mounts cutting time five minutes, cutting frame, spacer and glass, say ten minutes.
How long is one expected to drag out the fitting and assembling and finishing?

But for the sake of argument, without a CMC, add another quarter of an hour for the mounts, and a quarter of an hour more thinking about the job.

But without a cmc? why would i want to try doing it without a cmc?
I haven't had to cut a mount by hand since the 20th century.

all the vinyl record display layouts (including virtually the same as you have there) are in my cmc already, believe me some other people on this forum have seen the library and it runs into 100s of designs for albums and singles alone .... i'd be some sort of muppet for not using the cmc, and frankly I cant see that any framer will be without one in ten years, except the very smallest operations.

as wizard say .....
Image
How long did just the mounts take you? I'll guess twenty minutes. Plus another ten minutes marking out and thinking time. Plus some design time (unless that was already done at the counter)

well? :giggle:

plus we are a two man workshop and it would not have been made on a "one job at a time basis" - we batch our work, all the frames, all the mounts, all the glazing, then all the fitting and finishing.

;)
Roboframer

Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by Roboframer »

I see, I see, I get the picture.

But you did not answer the question - which was, could you have turned that job out, in the same way and with the same equipment as I had, in half an hour?
Roboframer wrote:Could you really do it - mount and frame six items - the exact same way as I did (minus CMC) in half an hour?

Nor did you spill how you would actually mount the items left to your own ends, I used no adhesive or tape on the records themselves and also none on the largest sleeve. Tape on the smallest two sleeves. How would you have fixed them? (records and sleeves) It's a race; it matters. I reckon I could RoboFrame you standing now I've done this once!

Are you looking at a career in politics or summut?

The words you are looking for, in answer to my question, are 'No John'
kev@frames
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Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by kev@frames »

ok then- add another quarter of an hour for the mounts, quarter of an hour designing the layout for the mounts and marking it up and a quarter of an hourthe stitching etc, then add and a quarter of an hour more thinking about the job. brings it up to an hour and a half.

then, "no, John" :head:

when you get your CMC, you'd do it in half an hour too, but you wouldn't be doing it the same way ;)

how would I do it? Left to my own devices I would resort to the way most people mount vinyl records- and the way we usually do them, as described in another post above, with an outer mount (front) an inner mount to surround the record and a backing mount. no stitching, no tape, no adhesives, 100 percent reversible, and (with a cmc) considerably the quickest way, and the cheapest in labour charges.

sort of on subject .... its the cmc which eliminates a lot of the labour time, not just on jobs like that, but on the majority of jobs. having a library of designs and every previous job built into it, the time saved in marking up, working out etc adds up to hours a week in saved time. This is how they pay for themselves.

we simply couln't afford to take an hour and a half of labour time on a £100 frame.
re timing:
if we took half an hour for a "bog standard" job, thet would mean we were only making two frames an hour. they come in over the shop counter quicker than that lol, i'd still be making orders that came in in 1998 at that rate ;)
Roboframer

Re: Striving for perfection?

Post by Roboframer »

Well, the whole thing, for me, was a learn-as-you-go experience and I didn't care that it took longer than it was worth - as I said, now I've done it once.......
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