Rose&Hollis "very deep box section"

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Rose&Hollis "very deep box section"

Post by Justintime »

Anyone have experience cutting and joining A333 and A335 together?
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Re: Rose&Hollis "very deep box section"

Post by Tudor Rose »

Yes - multiple times and we've used all the different depth sections too. What do you need to know?
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Re: Rose&Hollis "very deep box section"

Post by Justintime »

Hi Jo
I only have a morso, no chop saw, so restricted by height.
My first test was a disaster. I joined them separately and attempted to join each section afterwards. They didn't match up.
-I'm assuming the two profiles have to be joined in the length and then cut? Using a chop/table saw?
-The profiles didn't match exactly in width, so I'm assuming just sanding to match up?
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Re: Rose&Hollis "very deep box section"

Post by Not your average framer »

I have so far avoided using these particular mouldings completely, as I am not convinced that this is the most easily way of making deep boxes. I am much more comfortable make the complete depth of the side of the box from one complete section of 12mm, 18mm, or 24mm plywood and securing a cap moulding to cover the front edge using glue and dowels. I tend to think in terms of woodworking methods for things like this. I don't even have a proper doweling jig, but make one when I need one, using a couple of bits of scrap wood from the bin, as and when I need one.
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Re: Rose&Hollis "very deep box section"

Post by Tudor Rose »

Hi Justin

There is a fair bit of work involved in prep to get them to fit together nicely. Biggest thing we found was to increase the size of the channel in the A333 by putting it through a spindle cutter. That allows the tongue on the A335 to fit into the slot more easily as it can be too tight otherwise.

So, cut them separately and join afterwards. We pin each rim together and then use glue and clamps to fit the A333 and A335 together. The profiles might still not quite match up so then it is filler and sanding (belt sander or similar) to get the join as smooth as possible.

If you can get it right it makes a really strong and solid frame.

Hope that helps.

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Re: Rose&Hollis "very deep box section"

Post by Tudor Rose »

These are a couple being clamped.
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Re: Rose&Hollis "very deep box section"

Post by vintage frames »

I've never done this, he chirps - but ..
Cut the top one first to size. Cut the bottom one oversize by about 10mm each end. Clamp and glue the two together with the top one set mid way.
Next day, sand the outer surfaces smooth to match.
Now pop the assembly into the morso and cut the bottoms using the side of the blades as a guide and end stop. Do this for both ends.
Do a simple underpin first but then use a strap clamp to assemble the whole frame.
That might work - I think!
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Re: Rose&Hollis "very deep box section"

Post by Not your average framer »

I think I would make that two band clamps! Over such a large depth over frame any distortion occurring with the combined frame mouldings may leave corners still tending to be somewhat to be not meeting exactly as wanted and two band clamps might be better than one what trying to close each corner to completely gap free. For myself, I think that I will still stick to my plywood, thank you.

P.S. I use ratchet straps in preference to band clamps, as I think that the ratchet straps can be wound up tighter by the stronger tightening mechanism.
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Re: Rose&Hollis "very deep box section"

Post by fusionframer »

How deep are you needing?

Vintage frames method is good although you may find the underpinner top clamp does not give you enough room. My top clamp (gielle 4000) would not have enough height adjustment.

I have made deep boxes, but not with the tongue and groove which requires an exact match (which i believe is your problem with the attempt you made). I would widen the groove with a spindle moulder like Tudor Rose, but given you don't have a chop saw, i suspect you won't have a spindle moulder or router table.

If you can't do what vintage frames suggested because of underpinner issue, i would do make and pin 2 frames separately. Make the 2nd frame 1mm bigger (better the bottom one bigger than top). Then you have 2 options. The first is to remove a bit from the tongue. It doesn't need to be neat as it won't be seen and you will find and new stanley knife will do it easily with obeche. Just use a ruler and as you are going with the grain, it will slice straight down. It will be quick even on a big frame.

You will be able to test the fit as you go. There is plenty of the 2 frames touching that even if you removed the tongue completely, the frames when glued would be solid. It is when gluing end grain, you need to be a bit careful.

So as mentioned above, 2nd option, is to remove tongue which can again be done with a stanley knife. Alternatively, a tenon saw would do it, or planes if you have them.

Either way, you can glue like tudor roses photo. Then sand, but as i said earlier, it is always better to make bottom frame slightly oversize if you cannot get exact size.

You may know this but a good way to hide where 2 frames meet is by running a small bead of glue along and sand. The glue and sawdust will hide line.

Apologies for essay, but done a few of these so these do work.

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Re: Rose&Hollis "very deep box section"

Post by vintage frames »

Fusionframer, thanks for your support. I only suggested the underpinner because most framers seem ideologically attached to the machines. I used to be too, but for this job I wouldn't be bothered with any underpinner. Just use two band clamps as NYAF suggested, a good pair of reading glasses and fingers and thumbs to line up the mitres. You can cross nail the next day if needed.
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Re: Rose&Hollis "very deep box section"

Post by grahamdown »

Used it several times with great success - but beware they only fit one way around for a perfect fit so ensure they match before you cut on the morso.
i cut the sides for each box as i go (ie assuming a rectangular box, sides 1&3 of top and bottom mouldings then 2 & 4 the same), create the two boxes and then glue together. a little bit of fine sanding and the face is perfect.
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Re: Rose&Hollis "very deep box section"

Post by Justintime »

Thanks all, very much appreciated. I knew I couldn't the only one to try this!
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Re: Rose&Hollis "very deep box section"

Post by prospero »

Never used them, but one thing I do know about when joining stacked moulding is that no matter how accurately you think
you have cut and joined sections, you need a bit of 'wiggle room'. With these two sections you can't have any and the tolerance is zero.

If I were doing it, I'd approach it like this: Cut the pairs of rails without altering the Morso settings. Join the bottom half.
Then glue the top bits into their slots - without joining the corners. Once they are all snuggly in place, cross-nail the corners on the top bits.

A set of old-school spring clamps is handy for jobs like this. It's plain wood so never mind the divots. :D
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Re: Rose&Hollis "very deep box section"

Post by Not your average framer »

These mouldings are quite wide and have a nice large glue contact area and If you don't have enough height under the top clamp of you under pinner, this large glue area is your friend and you can glue and clamp the joint without under pinning the joint, and the cross pinning the mitre joins with veneer pins after the glue has fully set. If you do not have any suitable woodworking clamps, now might be a good time to get some. You don't need to buy the most expensive clamps, there are plenty of clamps available at affordable prices if you look at the discount online shops. If you are going to do more of the more difficult jobs in the future, you will find them very useful.

I make up all manner of odd jobs for customrs, once the word gets around that you can do the more unusual jobs, customers will seek you out for all manner of jobs that aren't quite just plain ordinary "run of the mill" framing jobs and you will develop your own way of doing things. It won't hurt your business at all, being known for doing jobs that other framers don't necessarily have the means to take on. I've been doing all manner of jobs that often don't have much connectioin with ordinary framing for years. Customers just come in and ask and I have a quick think about how it needs to be done and if I am able to do it, there's nothing planned about it. It just happens, all you have to do,is decide if you want the job.
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