Framing paintings on 9mm MDF boards

[123hackney]

Firstly a quick hello, Hi I'm Kitty, I have taken a few community college framing courses over the last couple years & I have just bitten the bullet & bought some equipment to frame from home, very part time. I absolutely love a challenge, in fact I have made very few 'standard' frames so far! Shoes, Plates, you name it, I'll give it a bash. The bigger the better!

So I have an artist I am framing for who paints onto 1m square 9mm thick mdf boards. I am looking to frame them with a tray/inlay frame with a small shadow gap. I am going to first build a subframe (screwed to the frame) to bring the face of the painting to be level with the face of the moulding. I am a bit unsure what to use to attach the subframe to the mdf. I was looking at using 3m duo loc velcro tape but it seems very expensive for what I'm doing. Is there an adhesive reliable enough for something like this? I wasn't considering screwing into the mdf as its so thin but very open to any suggestions!

Thanks a mil, I have loved reading the posts here. A fountain of knowledge. Hopefully one day soon I'll be paying some forward too!

Kitty

[Justintime]

Hi Kitty,
Lions do a Heavy Duty Bonding Tape (code 6918/6919) which should do the trick, assuming you clean down the area to be taped first with alcohol wipes, they say removal hasn't been tested, but should work with acetone or lighter fluid. So it's important to inform the artist that this won't be guaranteed reversible. PVA dotted in a few places and weighted while it goes off would do the same and would probably be much easier to reverse with a blade in the future.
My main concern is that unless the board is thoroughly sealed front back and sides, then is will take on moisture and warp in the future. I would suggest that any unpainted parts of the board, sides and back are sealed with an acrylic varnish like Polyvine decorators varnish, by the artist prior to framing.
Good luck!

[prospero]

It would be better to fix the subframe to the panel - Maybe with a couple of cross pieces. Ideally this should be done
before the panel is painted on. And the back sealed with something at the same time.

I've framed a few (mega-expensive) paintings done on 12 and 9 mm MDF. Some quite large. These panels were very stable
but I framed them conventionally. As you say, screwing into them is a bit iffy and screws don't hold too well in MDF anyway.
The subframe would have to be glued - PVA should work fine as long as you do a bare wood the bare wood contact. Seal it
after the subframe is attached. This done, the painting can be easily held it the frame by screws.

[Not your average framer]

You have not mentioned the size of these MDF Panels, as they start to get large cross braces inside the gled on wooden frame may become advisable. There is no need to screw in to the MDF, it does not cotribe and strength, so it's not necessary to do it, but it may be worth pinning part ways in to the MDF from the reverse side through the rear support frame, this will not provide any extra strength, but I will hold everything together while the glue sets.

[GeoSpectrum]

If you do go for the subframe option you could set it in slightly from the edge and (with the artistspwrmission) paint the lip and the subframe black. This would make for a good shadow effect. I would say you need to find a way of applying pressure to the joint while the glue is drying. A square meter of mdf of quite heavy and you need a good joint. If you can lay the painting face down (make sure it's well protected) and apply weight to the subframe while the glue is drying thenthat should give a good strong bond. As has been said, a cross member is a good idea. I often use 45 degree corner braces form the centres, they seem to work quite well.

If all of this is a pain consider using 10mm stripwood glued and pinned to a mdf backing board to make a tray frame and attach the panel to the mdf. The join on the outside edge can be hidden with a little bit of filler, sanding and hand painting.

Rose and Hollis have good range of spacers etc. I use a lot of F9 for this sort of job.

[baughen]

Using the suggestions above work with the artist to come up with the best solution for them - they are more likely to continue using you as their framer.

[123hackney]

Thank you so much everyone for your responses. I will take all of this on board. I visited her studio today to see the artworks and v glad I did as when I checked one was actually 6mm, another 9mm, another 12mm and one is 18mm. She's a good friend, so we did have a laugh about it.

I passed onto her regarding the importance of sealing the backs, thanks for that. Unfortunately on seeing the artwork some has already warped slightly.
Lion bonding tape looks good, I might give it a go on some other pieces & reassuring to hear from all that PVA is reliable enough. One question I have though is its been mentioned PVA will work if its bare wood to bare wood and therefore to glue on the subframe and then seal it after? If this wasn't an option, for example one painting has another half finished painting on the back.... Would this tape then be a better option? And she'll just have to be ok with the possibility of it not being reversible?

GeoSpectrum thanks a lot for the Rose & Hollis tip off, exactly what I was looking for. But yes I think your suggestion of building the tray from Mdf backing etc may be the most realistic option now that we have so many thicknesses to play with! 

She's going to be painting on 3.5cm thick Gesso panels going forward which hopefully will make everyones lives easier.
Thanks again all. K 

[Gesso&Bole]

Over the years I have expended a lot of effort trying to educate artists to choose realistic, quality and standardised substrates for their artwork. This has given me heartburn on many occasions, and my success has only been limited.

Where this works well, the results can be dramatic. One artist that I have worked with for years immediately increased sales three-fold once I started to standardise his presentation. Suddenly customers were choosing a (matching) pair to go either side of the fireplace, or a set of 6 to go up the stairs. It also had a dramatic effect on his framing costs, because I can offer a better price on standard sizes. It also makes him look much more professional when he has a stall or an exhibition - the standardised presentation draws attention to the art, not the annoying mish-mash of frames.

The other 999 artists are still painting on old cardboard boxes, the back of old paintings, bits of warped wood, and then cutting a bit of the picture off trying to squeeze it into an Ikea frame, then asking me to sort it out!

All part of the fun.

[Not your average framer]

It has occurred to me to offer cradled boards for local artists to paint on. I've never done anything about it, as I previously was not set up to do this, but now I am much better equipped, perhaps I should consider doing this. Local artists often don't have much money, but if I could do them for a sensible price at a worthwhile profit, maybe this might work.

[123hackney]

Hi Folks,

Just a couple things on this again.

First off Mark I think there will definitely be a market for that. My friend is having trouble finding a suitable medium to paint on thats large enough.
She loves the cradled Gesso boards but they don't make them very large. If anyone has any advice for something better for her to paint on we are all ears. She has found a moisture resistant mdf which she is painting on for the moment.

I just wanted to check if my assumptions below are correct.

If I don't need to build a subframe and have a painted tray moulding that has a suitable depth for some of her mdf paintings am I right to think the following.

I am Ok to glue the molding directly to the back of the mdf providing I lightly sand the area of the moulding first?

If I am glueing them together we should only seal the back of her painting once I have framed it so as to make sure that the glue will hold. (I will seal the sides first though)

On the thicker (18mm) panels I should still use glue as opposed to screwing into the back?

Would very much welcome any thoughts!

(this is only for the 1m x 1m paintings. for the 2m x 1m I will build a subrame to make sure it has stability anyway.)

Much appreciated if anyone is still reading!  

[Not your average framer]

I only make cradled board to order at the moment, only certain artists know that I am happy to make them, You have to be a bit switched on about prices, Artists do quite a bit of comparing prices and are doing there best to screw you down on price. I'm also trying to make it look good at the right price, I don't use really gesso, or acrylic gesso as I'm in saving money mode. I mix clalky emulsion with acrylic exterior emusion and ripple coat. I looks and feels right and the cost is good. I never sealed the back of the MDF, back I often add cross braces at the back. I have a property developer friend who supplies me with fairly large off cuts of 18mm construction grade MDF. I and not aware that there has even been a problem with the boards warping.

I make the board slightly over size and trim then to size of the table saw. so that the edges are flush and then belt sand the edges before painting them. I also supply cradled board to some artists in bare wood condition and they paint them themselves, usually with a cheap exterior white emulsion paint. Prices are often negociated at the time of placing the order. Flush cut and belt sanded edges make life a lot easier, nobody asked me to do them this way, it produces a nice presentation and also enables me to not spend too much time making them. It's a bit of a pig of a job, to be honest and not my favorite job at all. I use plenty of power tools to save time and get the job done and out of the way. The frames age glued into position on to the MDF and pinned in place with a pneumatic nail gun. I always sand the front surface face a little where the nail gun has fired the pin in, some times it leaves a slight bump.

Customers don't usually want them covered with canvas, which I'm very glad about stick canvas on to these cradled boards is just unnecessary hassle as far as I'm concerned and I'd rather not be doing any of that, that thank you very much. I have some bookbinding linen which I would probably dry mount on to a layer of already dried PVA if I had to and then paint the linen with my usual gesso substitute. Pricing is not that easy, so keep a careful eye on you costs at first. Also be aware that your labour time increases when making up a mixture of board sizes. All to often Artists want to nogociate prices according to how much they have to pay for boards from elsewhere. Not everyone wants them primed and so far everyone is happy with 18mm MDF.

[Not your average framer]

I would not say that producing cradled boards is something that happens all that regularly and it mostly happens at particular times of the year. It's also not a particularly major income producer. It's not something which I am all that keen to promote, I am quite often already busy, when such jobs come along and it's often a bit of a stretch to fit it in to my already busy schedule.

I'm guessing that if you welcome plenty of work like this, that it might be something worth promoting, to get more of this sort of work. I don't think that It's something that every framer offers. I have not been asked to supply plain uncradled boards at all. I suspect that most artists just go to the local hardware shop and get a piece cut to size, quite cheaply and I would not be interested in competing with normal prices from the hardware shop as it would not be worth doing for so little money.

[123hackney]

No I don't have any desire to be doing a lot of this either. Just helping out my friend that I'm doing a fair bit of other framing for.
Thanks so much for all of your advice, I think I am all set to get these monsters framed now. Thanks for everyones input.
Kitty