Reusing existing frames

[Jill Shea]

I have just had a flurry of customers asking me to make mounts to go in existing frames with new pictures (prints). Do other framers get these requests? Because it’s an existing frame and it’s theoretically just a matter of taking the old picture out, making a new mount and putting the frame back together again they’re not expecting to pay much more than the cost of the new mount. However it invariably entails grappling with horrible sticky adhesive tape, nasty sharp points, cleaning dirty glass, replacing both backing board and barrier board and having to deal with shedding and splintered bits of a knackered old frame constantly shedding between the glass and new mount…. Most of the time it would be quicker just to make a new frame from scratch.

How do others charge for all the fiddling about ~ or do you simply refuse to do repair jobs on old frames?

[Gesso&Bole]

In principle, I am in favour of re-using frames that are of sufficient quality to start with. This seems to be a responsible, green, environmentally enlightened approach. However, I still need to earn a living, and the reality of the situation is often, as mentioned above, a sticky and fiddly job. Furthermore, the customer often thinks it will be a really cheap option, and it usually isn't.

My approach is to tell the customer that yes of course I can re-use their existing frames if it is practical and cost-effective to do so.
I also explain that it is at their risk - the glass may break as it comes out, the frame may not come apart cleanly etc - if it goes wrong they will have to buy new for those components.
I then price for it using my hourly labour charge - I have re-fit10, re-fit15, re-fit20 and re-fit30 programmed into my pricing system - these relate to the number of minutes I think it will take me, charged at my standard hourly rate.
Often, by the time I have upgraded them to AR glass, priced for a double mount, and new back, and hanging attachments, and the re-fit charge, it's not far off the normal bespoke price, and my profit is retained.

In reality this frequently blows their mind! They were thinking it would be cheaper than the Ikea frame they bought last summer.

If, that is the case, and they are wanting cheepy cheep. I will usually offer to cut them a new mount then and there (I have a CMC so 5 mins whilst they wait) but I will not touch the frame. This only applies to mountboard I have in stock.

The trick is to be able to educate them as to what bespoke framing is, and that it is not cheap (I often talk about hourly rates for garages or tradespeople to put this in perspective), but not to belittle or alienate people who genuinely thought that picture framing was the same price as a frame from Ikea. So by just cutting them a mount I can solve their problem, get paid something, and have a new customer who may come back with a proper job, or recommend me.

[Jill Shea]

Thanks - that’s really helpful.

Totally agree about trying to be as green as possible and not chucking out perfectly serviceable frames, although my experience has sometimes been of the fiddly, badly made variety.

Good advice about educating customers.

[Not your average framer]

I don't get as many customers wanting to re-use old frames these days anymore. There used to be a number of charity shops in the town and there used to be a good supply of old frames. Most of these charity shops have gone now and the supply of old frames disappeared with them, so that's that. I never really made much money from cutting mounts for old frames at all. I was mostly cutting mounts for cheap frames from IKEA. It's not very satisfying work, doing stuff like this and I just can't be bothered doing it anymore!

[pramsay13]

I get a few of these for new mounts, or even some for new pieces of glass.
I say I can cut them the mount or supply the glass for them to fit it themselves.
If they want me to fit it and seal up the frame etc. I can do that for £5 - £15 depending on the size of the frame and how easy or difficult I can see the job is going to be.

[baughen]

Perhaps someone can persuade 'The Repair Shop' to do a proper job of repairing a frame and demonstrating what's involved. They normally get one of their experts in other skills to 'fix' frames.

[prospero]

It's a fair proposition. but I just deduct the moulding cost which may be around a tenner or less on a medium sized frame.
But then you have to add the tear-down cost of the frame - prising out the pins and scraping the manky tape residue off.
Making good any wobbly corners and cleaning the old glass. This will likely be more than the cost of the actual frame.
If the frame is a sentimental item, OK. People seem to imagine that the frame is the main component of the whole issue,
while in reality it's a comparatively minor element.

If it's a particularly nice frame then that's one thing. An old Birds-eye Maple. Hand-gilded and nicely aged. Most period solid Oak
frames are worth reusing. These project come under the heading of Restoration.
But a cheapo frame from the '80s that came from a charity shop is not really worth the effort.

When all's said and done it is more often than not cheaper to do a completely new frame.

[Steve N]

I'm in the same mind as Gesso&Bole, I give them a price to take the frame apart and clean glass and attach print to mount and the cost of the mount, I telll them my minimum charge for taking a frame apart is £10.00, and I charge £60.00 per hour, so a 1/2 hour job is £30.00 plus the cost of the mount. I also give them the price of just the mount, so they can fit it themselves, some customers go for this , then I see them a couple of days later asking me to fit it and they will pay for it

[JFeig]

Since the early 90's I had used a computerized POS system with multiple fitting charge matrix's that were size generated.
examples included, but were not limited to:

regular
conservation
PIA customer
customer's materials
fire, water and bio-hazard
2 person job
overtime / rush

[Not your average framer]

I definitely can't be bothered with cleaning the old and manky glass. Not all old glass cleans up really well anyway. I don't much want my workshop getting cluttered up with a load of old juck ans rubbish frames which customers can't be bothered to collect, but which I have duty of care to keep somewhere safe incase they decide to collect them in years to come. No thanks, not for me!

[Not your average framer]

This seems to me that this is not a great way of making a proper living. Sure, I will cut mounts, backing board and glass for customers frames, but messing around with manky old frames seems pointless.

[Justintime]

I'm with Gesso&Bolle. if the frame is still structurally sound (which is rare) then I will do it.
I have an unfit charge to cover the time I spend opening the frame in front of the customer and dissecting what's inside. I'll also charge for time to clean and touch up an old frame. After that I charge as normal, having explained how I frame. Glass is tricky, the time it often takes to clean up an old piece is the same as the cost of a new piece. Unless it's very old aged glass I will replace it.

[Not your average framer]

Some old frames which I have had to fix are not always flat and need taking apart and fixing. People bring in old frames which have spent the last 50 year sitting in an old barn open to all weathers, or old frames which they picked up at a car boot sale. Very often the wood has gone all crumbly and is very hard to repair. From time to time people who are about to move house bring in old frames, which they don't want to take with them when they move.

Some of these are made with quite nteresting old style mouldings and I have on occasions produced small vintage frames from these to sell. They are mostly money for nothing! There is a bit of a trend for people liking to buy old style frames, but people can be quite picky what they buy. My newer distressed, old style and rustic frames sell really well. The recycled older frames is another story. I'm not really sure why that is, but that's definitely how it is.

[vintage frames]

Look out also for people bringing in old antique frames. No matter what condition, there's money in those frames. And especially rare is the glass.
If the surface of the glass is rippled looking and has some little blisters or bubbles then there is value in that glass.

The best advice is to put it aside and wait for when an antique dealer comes to have some pictures tidied up. You can charge a premium on original glass.

If you do have to cut some old glass then it's important to clean both surfaces with a paste of whiting and white spirit before trying to cut it.

[Justintime]

Why is that Dermot? The whiting and ws?

[Not your average framer]

I used to do this at one time. Antique dealers don't seem to be as interested as they once were these days. Some antique dealers bring in bits of greenhouse glass to be cut to size these days. Greenhouse glass is quite popular with some of the local artist as well. Many of the local artist have switched making their own framing these days to save money. The results of what they are making are a bit variable. I'm not that worried as many of them expected nice frames at unrealistic prices, so I'm not losing out.

[vintage frames]

Because old glass is quite thin and can be quite fragile. And because the surface is so uneven and irregular, and if not clean, there is a danger that the glass cutter will skid and spoil the cut.

A paste of white spirit and whiting will cut through all the aged gunk and greasy film often found on old picture frames. The white spirit evaporates quickly leaving the whiting which wipes cleanly away.

[Justintime]

Thanks Dermot, good to know!

[Not your average framer]

I used go to car boot sales, if it was a nice day and look for really old style frames, so that I could reuse the mouldings and hand finish the resulting frames, it was quite a worthwhile thing to do at the time. People expect more money for really old style frames now, so the opportunity does not exist any more, but it was good while it lasted. Modern bare wood moulding don't have quite the same look, or shape, but it is possible to re-model some currently available bare wood mouldings with my band saw and sander, to change look a little.

It is also much easier to recreate that really old look and shape by using stacked mouldings. I can still see this stuff fairly easily. There is a trick to it, it must not look like the modern retro look, but must look like it is genuinely old. Older mouldings have different proportions to the modern moulding and even those who do not know this can still spot the difference. You really must do your homework if you want to produce stuff like this, but it is well worth the effort, as this stuff sells well in little quiet "out of the way" rural towns.

More recent style old frames are not really worth all the effort, as there is plenty of 1970's stuff in charty shops and looking like something from a charity shop, not going to excite anyone!

[Justintime]

Dermot, whiting seems to be a rather loose term these days.
Do you mean Atlantic or will Alaskan Pollock suffice? And can you recommend a recipe for the paste? (sounds like a messy business )
With the decimation of the oceans is there a sustainable alternative and can you suggest a supplier?
TIA.