How the hell do I do this?

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Tim miller
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How the hell do I do this?

Post by Tim miller »

Hi everyone, long story short but I’ve recently ended up with a gallery with a framing facility.

I’ve a Morso and under Pinner etc, I’m pretty good with my hands so have made some half decent frames and am really enjoying it.

The main problems I’m having is getting a perfect join, I guess that’s the obvious one right?

Should I be using a band clamp then underpinning or clamping after the underpinning, the advice I’ve had is all clamps are rubbish and you don’t need them but I get told different things depending on who I ask.

One of the most reasonable things I’ve heard is put some super glue on them underpin straight away.

Is there an industry standard I need to follow as a beginner. HELP
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Gesso&Bole
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Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by Gesso&Bole »

Hi Tim, and welcome

You've come to the right place here. The advice you get on this forum will be better than you've had so far!

I would respectfully suggest that you get yourself some training. It's possible that either your underpinner or Morso are not correctly set up, but much more likely that your technique needs attention.

I've sent you a pm.
Jeremy (Jim) Anderson
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Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by Gesso&Bole »

As to glue, am I right in assuming that you are trying to join Polcore (plastic) moulding, since you mention superglue?

Generally if the cut is good and the moulding is decent quality wood, wood glue then underpin - shouldn't need clamps. But I would recommend you have strap clamps available for the odd awkward one.

If on the other hand you are trying to get perfect joints with plastic moulding, that's more difficult. Tell us more (moulding code, and photo of the join you got) and we will try to help.
Jeremy (Jim) Anderson
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Tim miller
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Interests: Hi. I like art and sports, mainly golf, tennis and football. I’m a designer by trade and have just opened a gallery on Richmond North Yorkshire so am attempting to turn my hand to framing.

Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by Tim miller »

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the response. I’ve ended up with polecore and wooden ones. Quite frankly I don’t know which to pick, I’m getting them from lion, mainline and Centrado. Are there easier ones to use as I could focus on selling those first maybe, is wood easier than polecore? On the small thin wooden ones I’m always breaking them but I think that’s because my blades need sharpening.

A framer I know suggested superglue but he was firmly in the camp of not using glue. The reason I mentioned it is because it seemed like the right thing to do so I bought some polecore and wood glue and have been putting it on just before using the under Pinner. It I got worried about getting glue on the machine, especially the polecore glue as it’s well sticky.

The joint I’m getting can be good depending on the frame type so I just did a bit of research and came across these band clamps so I was thinking that would help on the ones I can’t seem to get right. Can I try it on the underpinner and if the join isn’t perfect put the clamp on then or does it have to go on first.

Thanks for the advice. I’ll put some pics and codes on next time I’m in the gallery.
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Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by GeoSpectrum »

Polcore needs superglue, wood needs wood glue. You should always use glue.

As suggested a day or so of training would stand you in good stead. Better to do it right form the start, reputation is everything.
Alan Huntley
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Tim miller
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Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by Tim miller »

Thanks Alan, I think I will get some training.

Could I ask in terms of the amount of underpins used and how far from the corner interior and exterior.

I was doing some tests and thought maybe 8mm from the external and 4mm from the internal one and there is room bang one in the middle.

Does that sound reasonable?
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Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by fitz »

As far as underpinning is concerned it is difficult to be prescriptive in relation to distances etc but as a general guide I aim to be between 4 and 6 mm from the outside edge but more if I am double or triple pinning. When you double or triple pin there is a tendency for the v nails to push outwards and if you are too close to the edge to start with the nails will burst through the finish. I tend to nail around 4mm from the rebate edge. The amount of v nails inserted obviously varies with the size of the moulding but I nail probably every 10mm or so. I also glue first with PVA before pinning. The shape of the moulding will also determine the amount of pins and I will not try to pin under a complex design but will seek out the best/flattest area to secure. There can be a tendency for some mouldings, especially the metallic finished and foil type mouldings to chip and crack if not handled carefully under the pressure of the underpinner clamp.

I always band clamp after pinning to try to achieve the best seal to the mitres as possible. I also pop the “sandwich” into the frame whilst still clamped and after a short time will use the tab gun on the back and find the band clamp helps support the frame during the tabbing process.

Beware too of pulling the hanging string too tight within the D rings as this can create a pull on the mitred edges and can create a slight separation if you’re not careful.
Tim miller
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Interests: Hi. I like art and sports, mainly golf, tennis and football. I’m a designer by trade and have just opened a gallery on Richmond North Yorkshire so am attempting to turn my hand to framing.

Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by Tim miller »

Thanks again. This is great stuff. Any recommendations on band clamps?
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Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by fitz »

I use a strap clamp Bessey. Best to shop around, Amazon, eBay etc as I bought them much cheaper there than from the main framing suppliers. Plenty of other options around and others may have different preferences.👍
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Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by Not your average framer »

If you are using Polcore, I would suggest that you consider using one of the slower setting super glues and bring the pieces of the polcore together against the fences on the underpinner before inserting the the wedges using the underpinner. It's possible to press the two pieces together so as to close any slight gap together, to avoid any slight gap either on the inside, or the outside of the mitre joint. After allowing enough time for the glue to set the wedges can be inserted in to position. I only very rarely use Polcore at all these days, but I position my wedges futher away from the moulding edges, than I would do if I was using wooden mouldings. As for using wooden mouldings, it's almost the same procedure except that I am using a good quality (thicker) PVA wood glue, but I am still using my hands to close any slight gap together, again to avoid any slight gap either on the inside, or the outside of the mire joint, before inserting the wedges in to position. I like to batch different tasks at different times. I might be making different frames for different customers, but I will often spend a morning just cutting and joining moulding for frames. I have what looks like toast racks where I can store differt framing jobs, Including their paperwork and partly processed materials ready for the next stage to be completed.

Next I cut the glass, backing boards and blanks for cutting the mounts. I have a good range of different colours of mountboard and it's fairly rare that I need to order a colour of mountboard, which I don't normally have in stock. Almost all of my mountboard stock is conservation quality mountboard and I have a separate storage area for storing left overs and off cuts of mountboard, which is below a certain size. I also have divided stoage cubby holes for precut glass, backing boards and mountboard blacks, which are easy to use for smaller customer jobs, or even ready made frames. Haiving an easily accessible stock of such things tends to be helpful, convenient and being able to find small pieces quickly and easily saves cutting up larger pieces when not necessary. I have a limited stock of existing mouldings, which I offer as a limited price deal, when customers turn down my normal prices. It works like this, I have three set sizes of glass, backing board and mountboard and a choice of about a dozen frame moulding at a fixed price for each size. These particular mouldings are all inclued in the same fixed price and I already stock these mouldings as part of my standard stock for normal jobs, a few are ones which I buy in for making ready made frames. I are very happy to cut down these standard sizes to make smaller sizes, but the glass, backing board and mountboard blacks are already precut to size and if the are to be recut to smaller sizes, there will be no according reduction in price.

This deal is a pretty good deal for the customers and for me as well. I cut some of the material sizes out of standard size sheets and the sizes are choosen, so that there is no wastage from standard 3ft by 4ft sheet materials. No waste means that I don't need to include a wastage allowance in my costings and although it's a discounted deal, I am not making any less profit than normal, so I'm very happy too! Quite a lot of these standard size pieces get cut from my normally generated waste materials. I don't use and lower priced material for this, these frames are all made from my standard stock materials, including conservation grade mountboard. To do otherwise, is just not finacially effective. I don't like to make this deal well known, it is merely a way of being able to offer a lower price, when I can't get a comstomer to pay my usual prices and otherwise watching them walk out the door, without a sale. The fixed price reduction on this deal is 25 percent and the deal pays for itself, leaving me a small increase in profit on my normal prices. So it works out well for me, too! My current levels of material wastage still allows me extra wastage, which I am currently not fully able to utilise and turn in to a worthwhile level of profit and I'm still working on a few ideas, which may help with that a bit when the time comes. A significant difficulty with doing stuff this way is only using ideas which are quick, simple, easy and profitable as well. Finding ideas which satisfy these criteria is not exactly as easy as you might imagine!
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Tim miller
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Interests: Hi. I like art and sports, mainly golf, tennis and football. I’m a designer by trade and have just opened a gallery on Richmond North Yorkshire so am attempting to turn my hand to framing.

Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by Tim miller »

Thanks again everyone, really useful.

Whats everyones opinion on polcore vs wood?
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Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by Not your average framer »

I think that the answer concerning Polcore vs wood is going to depend on the prorities and requirements of individual users. It is often no longer such a simple and straight forward issue as it once was. Marking money by producing things to sell has become a much more of an art in the current more difficult times. Making the finances work to your advantage in times of restricted work forces and trying to punch above your weight by working smarter and making effecient use of almost every moment, has changed the way that we need to think and work. There are those who at one time chose not to use polymer mouldings, who now use them all the time. If you are happy to make polymer frames without gluing the corners, they can make a lot of sense. One of the local contract framers down here in Devon, supplies large volumes of frames to trade customers and he knows a few tricks, which only contract framers usually know.

One of these trick is to use wider polymer moulding as he can spread out the wedges further apart to make the corner joints more durable as he does not glue the joints of polymer moulding frames. This is a really common thing with contract framing even on wooden mouldings as well and it definitely something to think about, if you are considering switching to using polymer mouldings, this may be a helpful consideration, particularly if you are intending to send frames to customers by post. It saves a lot of time, not needing to apply glue and this also helps to reduce costs as well. Contract framers really know exactly where to place the wedges in order to get the best results with the smallest number of wedges, so it is well worth teaching yourself the best way of placing the wedge for best results & speed of working. It is not always the cheapest mouldings, which make the most sense, but usually those which are not the really dazzling finishes which tend to show every mark.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Tim miller
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Interests: Hi. I like art and sports, mainly golf, tennis and football. I’m a designer by trade and have just opened a gallery on Richmond North Yorkshire so am attempting to turn my hand to framing.

Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by Tim miller »

Thanks Mark, which one do you think is easier to use, wood or polcore
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Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by Not your average framer »

It depends up on a number of things. Some mouldings are faster and easier to cut and join and that includes ease of lining up bits to get the corner joints bang on right before joining on the underpinner. Polymer mouldings don't cut and join very well when they are cold, so they need to stored in a warm place before using when it's a cold time of year. Flat, rectangular profile mouldings cut and line up very simply on the underpinner ready for joining. The rounded shaft of a screw driver, will often rub across the outside of the corner joints on polymer frames after joining to flatten any burrs which are on the mouldings cut edges. It is not necessarily the case that polymer mouldings are going to be cheaper than wooded mouldings. There are plenty of very good looking and presentable wooden mouldings which are at the right price and easy to cut and join, these can also be quite advantageous for volume framing as well.

Some wooden mouldings can occasionally get the odd bit of slightly bent or twisted moulding. I usually cut shorter pieces from any lengths which are slightly bent, or twisted, because the bent, or twisted bit is usually less of a problem over shorter lengths. I can be necessary to clamp and glue frames which have a slight tendancy to bow and cause slightly open corner joints. I would not count on this to much, but sometimes when making ready made frames the glass will often hold the flame nice and flat where there is a slight problem with a little bit of bowing to the frame. As you may have already noticed, there is a definite tendancy with manufacturers of ready made frames to go for wider moulding styles these days, this is not just a fashion thing, but it greatly contributes to ddurabilty and supporting what is often excessively thin glass in transist. Packaging costs are often a big thing in these days and it is often more cost effective to spend a little bit more on the costs of producing the frame, the even more on the costs of the packaging.

Trying to pack things re-using salvaged packing materials can often be more expensive and more time consuming. I buy standard sized flat packed, fold together boxes from my local packaging supplier. For smaller itens they are quick, cheap and easy. Unfortunately larger flat packed boxes, increase in price with increasing sizes at an apailling rate and very quickly become uneconomical. So re-using salvaged packaging starts to make sense for larger items. I make plenty of smaller square frames just to use up my left overs and scraps. They tick over quite well, for me, many of the less exciting one's are destined for the £1 box. People digging trough the £1 box, very rarely buy just one item if there are a few interesting items in the box. During the summer, when there's some tourists about the £1 box can be enormously popular. Nobody thinks anything of paying £1 for a picture frame at all and I always ask if they would like another matching one when they are ready to pay and They will often go for that as well. £1 box sales can often be about £20 to £30 a week.

Damaged bits of moulding get turned in to rustic style frames and if they don't look so exciting they go in to the £1 box, with a little paper label inside which says "rustic frames". It's just marketing, what's the difference between a little bit of damage and something which has been specially distressed? Very often, not a lot! However there is a very helpful difference between paying the waste disposal company to take away bits of damaged moulding, or making rustic style frames which customers are often happy to pay for instead. A lot of my really small bits of waste glass and backing board get cut in to 5 inch squares, to get made into small 5 inch square frames. Nice ones get sold and at a worthwhile price and less exciting ones get sold in the £1 box. I do even make a few as deep box frames as well. Lots of stuff from my £1 box gets re-sold on the internet by regular customer after putting something interesting inside. I always do the buy two get one free deal with the £1 box. Everyone likes a bargain!
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
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prospero
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Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by prospero »

Poly moulding looks attractive because of the price, but it is mostly aimed at high-volume framers working on tight margins.
These folks have factory setups with very sophisticated and expensive equipment that can cope with poly. For the average custom
framer it can be more trouble to work with and cause headaches and wasted time - often outweighing the benefits of any money saved. :roll:
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Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by Gesso&Bole »

What he said
Jeremy (Jim) Anderson
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Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by Justintime »

Strap clamps, I use the yellow Stanley ones, no problem with them.
Polcore vs Wood. Wood no question for me, but then I got into this to do high quality not high volume.
Use a quality wood glue like Titebond 3 and remember that it starts to cure after 5 mins so if clamping get in on straight away.
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Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by Not your average framer »

I really don't use polymer mouldings by choice at all these days, but I've still got some polcore bit and pieces which get used to make a few salable frames. I like wood mouldings much more. My choice is not based on working out what necessarily work best, when do the sums and try to see what makes the most profit. I don't really like polymer mouldings, but it's really easy to persuade customers that real wood moulding are better quality and more durable as well. I'm much more someone who is a natural person who work with wood.

I like hand finishing and stacked moulding profiles, so that's not going to be using polymer mouldings anyway. I'm always trying to do the artisan quality ad niche market thing, so that's not really a polymer moulding thing anyway. I turn some of my left over moulding bit and scraps in to spacers for box frames. Wood is much more convertable for other uses, so that works well for me! I sell rustic, manky sort of cottage / barnwood / driftwood like frames, so that needs to be wood.

I like playing around with my woodworking machinery. I am well known for making display boxes, box framesand the like, it's just my thing!
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Tim miller
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Joined: Sat 01 Jan, 2022 12:17 pm
Location: Leeds
Organisation: Yorkshire art
Interests: Hi. I like art and sports, mainly golf, tennis and football. I’m a designer by trade and have just opened a gallery on Richmond North Yorkshire so am attempting to turn my hand to framing.

Re: How the hell do I do this?

Post by Tim miller »

Thanks again guys - this is amazing stuff
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