A frame within a frame?

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Estelle
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A frame within a frame?

Post by Estelle » Wed 30 Mar, 2022 2:41 pm

Hi

I’ve been framing for a number of years now but I’m looking for advice on how to make a more elaborate type of frame than the norm for my own paintings so hoping someone can advise.

I’ve seen the sort of thing I’m looking to produce and it looks like a frame within a frame plus a slip. It’s quite wide and makes a statement.

What I want to know is what rules I need to follow. Eg Outer moulding width wider than inner moulding and slip. Rebate depth deep enough to accommodate total depth of inner moulding, etc.

Also, can anyone recommend combinations of mouldings and slips that work well together and where I might get them from?

It would be useful to know these things along with anything else before I start spending my money and making expensive mistakes.

I look forward to any advice

Thank you in anticipation.

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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by theframer » Wed 30 Mar, 2022 3:28 pm

I think your best to play with the frame samples you have it will give you a great insight to what they will look like,
Hope that helps,

Regards
Dave

Estelle
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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by Estelle » Wed 30 Mar, 2022 3:34 pm

Thank you Dave. Yes, I’ve been doing that but as I have no experience of working with the pros in an actual workshop I thought I’d try to pick a few brains before I take the plunge. Just wish I could have done woodwork instead of needlework at school, I might have had a bit more idea of what will work and what won’t! 😂

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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by Gesso&Bole » Wed 30 Mar, 2022 5:22 pm

Where do you buy your mouldings from? Maybe go and play with the chevrons there.

Otherwise looking at the Rose & Hollis catalogue or website (unfinished mouldings) where the mouldings are all drawn in profile and to scale can help you to visualise how they could go together to get the look you want.

There are no hard and fast rules, apart from the rules of physics. I personally don't like ugly bits sticking out of frames when viewed from the side, but that's not to say it's wrong.

Think about colour - if you are hand finishing, it's easy to paint the frames different colours before slotting them together.
Think about how you will join them - glue only, normal framing points, Multipoints, and headless pins are the most common methods I use

If you have a picture of the sort of thing you are trying to achieve, post it here, and I'm sure people will help with where to source the moulding
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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by Not your average framer » Wed 30 Mar, 2022 5:36 pm

We are all pretty clueless at first, so don't be too hard on yourself.

Lets see if we can answer some questions are narrow things down a bit. I'm assuming that you do not have any pictures to show us, so....

1. Are all the mouldings assembled together as one whole frame, or are there any wide spaces in between? If all the frames are joined together as one, I would say that it makes it a stacked moulding frame!

2. Are we talking about more modern looking shapes and profiles of the mouldings, or are the shapes and profles of a more traditional style? Lots of stacked moulding frames may still use traditional shapes and styles, but the colouring is often done in a more modern way.

There are various reasons why different people produce stacked moulding frames, some are trying to create an interesting a wide profile at an economic cost, or others are less motivated by cost, but are wanting to create something truely eye catching. As some one has already mentioned it often helps to have some moulding corner samples to match and mix with to see how different moulding will look like together. I've been doing stacked moulding for over twenty years now and although I not doing it ith exactly wanting to create the same sort of thing in the early days, a lot of times is still the same general thinking. I'm often looking to produce frame styles, which I can display in my shop windows to create interest and business from passing customers and there is a deliberate intent to produce something which is not like what you can easily find elsewhere. Sorry if that is not so far answering your needs right now, but think about those two questions and tell us what you are thinking and perhaps it will help us to understand better.
Mark Lacey

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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by vintage frames » Wed 30 Mar, 2022 5:43 pm

As has already been suggested, if you could post a picture of the sort of frame you'd like to make, then we could identify the mouldings used and talk you through how to build it.
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Estelle
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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by Estelle » Wed 30 Mar, 2022 6:39 pm

Hi. Thank you so much for all your replies - this has to be one of the most helpful forums around! 😊👍

I’ve attached a couple of images of the type of thing I’m trying to do.
Attachments
93F6E1D3-44EE-44BD-94FD-C08A5C1857EC.jpeg
AF7F9A5D-BF7A-4604-9E0A-8A46C1031A87.jpeg

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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by Not your average framer » Wed 30 Mar, 2022 8:14 pm

Right O.K.,

I shall go through these one at a time starting with the top picture in your reply. I am starting from the outside and working inwards!

1. The outer most moulding is Rose & Hollis A194 (obeche)'

2. The middle moulding is a flat moulding, or spacer, possibly Rose and hollis F9 (Obeche), but maybe it's something else like perhaps
A40 (Obeche) up side down,

3. The inner most moulding is either Rose and Hollis A16 (Obeche), or perhaps Rose and Hollis A78 (Obeche).

Your lower picture is as follows:-

1. The outer most moulding is Rose and Hollis A235 (obeche).

2. the inner most moulding is Rose and Hollis is either Rose and Hollis A16 (Obeche), or perhaps Rose and Hollis A78 (obeche).

I am thinking that the second frame may also include a Rose and Hollis F3 (Obeche) spacer to fill the rebate in A235 and there may be a Rose and Hollis F3 (Obeche) spacer to fill the rebate in A194. Whatever has been used to create the silver finish looks quite classy, so probably not anyold silver paint. I can think of two finishes that I use which would look really classy for the gold, but it also might be real silver leaf, in which case Dermot can tell you all about that.

BTW, don't they look great!
Mark Lacey

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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by fusionframer » Wed 30 Mar, 2022 8:31 pm

Like mentioned previously, there is no right or wrong way to do this. Often, silver or gold inner frames will work well with black as shown in your photos.

The key things that can cause problems is that.

1. When a painting is fitted to the inner frame, it will cause your outer frame to sit away from the wall which can look wrong. An outer frame with a deeper rebate will stop this.

2. The outside edge of the inner frame needs to be flat so it sits neatly inside the outer frame (obvious really).

3 if adding an outer frame as in photo 1, again make sure rebate is sufficient to hide inner frame.

All obvious really, other than that, it is what you think looks good. I am a great believer in trying things. I have come up with some of my best combinations and finishes when just trying things out, often failing first, but then getting the one that works.

Good luck

Nick
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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by Not your average framer » Wed 30 Mar, 2022 8:36 pm

I really like the look of these and they have given me some ideas to think about to try for my self as well.
Mark Lacey

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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by fusionframer » Wed 30 Mar, 2022 9:05 pm

Sorry, other thing i forgot to mention is that if your inner frame is say 2-4mm smaller (you do want to allow a little bit for expansion and contraction), when fixing it to outer moulding, make sure it stays central and square in the frame. If there is any play use spacers to hold it in place. Cardboard is fine, you can remove it after fixing.

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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by prospero » Wed 30 Mar, 2022 10:08 pm

Rule 1: If it looks good it is good. :D

End Of. :clap:
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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by Not your average framer » Wed 30 Mar, 2022 11:28 pm

I don't allow as much clearance between inner and outer frames, because I don't want to allow for movement, if I am painting both frames as one. If there is any movement that can crack the paint and I dont want that. I slide the inner frame into the outer frame on a film of glue and then fix both frames together using narrow crown staples. The staples won't allow any movement, so any expansion, or contraction just can't happen. I've been doing this for years and nothing ever goes wrong, even after years and years. Everything just stays looking really great, forever!
Mark Lacey

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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by Estelle » Thu 31 Mar, 2022 3:34 am

Thank you again for all your replies and advice. I have an account with Rose and Hollis so will check out their site again Mark Lacey.

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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by fusionframer » Thu 31 Mar, 2022 8:41 am

I just wanted to be clear that my aim is to allow 1mm each side (2mm overall) rather than the frame going in tightly. Sometimes it is possible for it to be closer to 2mm each side as you don't want to be planing the sides of the inner frame.

Also for clarity, whether you glue and staple or pin a frame to another, it can still expand and contract. And wood being wood, the inner frame can expand more than the outer frame. As an example of the potential forces involved, i went to look at an external paneled door (made by someone else) last year. It was 6 months old, made from sapele. The joiner had made the panel from solid sapele jointed together and glued into a slot in the door. The panel had expanded so much it had blown the bottom rails tenon and mortice joints, and that is some serious force involved to do that!

The correct way to have done the panel was to use good plywood which doesn't expand and contract like solid wood and still only apply glue on 2 opposite corners, also making sure there is room for it to expand into the slot.

I know a big panel is a different proposition to a frame, but especially on a larger frame, i would want a little expansion gap just in case.

Others may do it differently and it work which is great, but i have been taught to always allow for expansion.

Nick
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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by Not your average framer » Thu 31 Mar, 2022 8:43 am

There are some worthwhile possibilities to use some significantly lower cost mouldings to achieve visually not dissimilar looks stacked mouldings as well. I use some other suppliers mouldings, including some which are most easily secured together using Fletcher Terry multi-points and and multi-point gun. To allow the multi-points to get into some positions it is necessary to assemble the stacked moulding in an order which takes this into account. It is not always the most intuitive way of working, but you soon get used to it. I like to stack moulding in such a way as to create a relatively flat surface across the reverse of the stacked mouldind frame, but when you are using some mouldings to control costs this is not always possible and there will be a rear surface to the frame, which is a bit gappy in places.

The actual stacked moulding frame can still look great as viewed from the front, but covering the back to look more of a flatter surface might be less easy, until you have dicovered easier ways to do this. As has already been mentioned, it looks much better to have a full depth moulding, as the outer part of a stacked moulding frame and finding something suitable from a low priced supplier is not always possible at all. Also speed of assembling the stacked mouldings together has a time component which I do my best to minimise and there reduce costs. Profitablity is an important consideration when producing stacked moulding frames. Sure, stacked moulding frames can look really great and can enance the saleability of the frame, but part of the objective is also to enable a better profit margin. Always keep your eye on producing a stunning looking frame and making a meaningful profit.

Not all of the time you are spending doing things as part of running your business, will be doing productive and profitable work and this means that the time which you spend producing saleable product, needs to generate more worthwhile profit than most people are likely to be expecting. When I am producing frames, I try to get £1 out of every minute spent producing that frame and this means working to a system of how things are done. It does not just happen all by itself, it has to be made to work like that. Also the time that you spend doing less productive tasks must be disiplined so as not to waste profit which has been generated by the really productive way you have been producing items. It's a lot to think about, but it's the secret to making a framing business work properly.

There is a particular size of frame, below which it is not so profitable to produce stacked moulding frames. The price which you can get customers to pay for smaller frames, has it's limits and this is usually where you need to think about other ways of creating a useful level of saleability to these frames, other than producing stacked moulding frames. I produce plenty of smaller frames from my left overs and off-cuts, but it is often true that creating a worthwhile market for smaller frames is far from easy and ths is where you start thinking out of the box. Pairs of small frames are not only easier to sell, but often they will sell for a higher price than the same frames being sold as single items. It is also very easy to include round aperture and oval aperture mounts in small frames, if you have an oval mountcutter. Don't forget you will generate plenty of smaller mountboard off-cuts.

A small double mount in a small frame, greatly enhances the saleability of the frame, but it can be a lot quicker to cut a round, or oval aperture mount than a mount with a rectangular apperature, as you don't need to keep removing and rotating the mountboard. Double mounts are always really eye catching and sell quite well, Double mounts with a contrasting colour reveal are even better. Small frames made for character wood off-cuts, such as Oak are very easy to sell. Off-cuts and left overs of Oak mouldings with knots and handling dings and dents can make nice "rustic" frames and these are quite popularly, I literally can't get enough of these. Also don't forget to produce hinged small matching frames, customers do look at these when they are displayed in your window. Don't put too much in your shop windows as it loses visual impact, remember less can be more!
Mark Lacey

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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by theframer » Thu 31 Mar, 2022 8:45 am

You can do them with factory finished mouldings,
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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by Not your average framer » Thu 31 Mar, 2022 8:53 am

Hi Nick,

I am about the same as you, when I dont need to glue the stacked moulding frames together. I use small pieces of thin card to space the frames evenly and fix the together using 20 gauge rustless narrow crown staples and a pneumatic stapler from the inside of the frame. It's quick, simple and foolproof. Am I like to assemble these in batches using a pneumatic stapler saves enormous amounts of time and therefore money. When I need to glue things together he gaps is only 0.5mm all round and the glue easily fills that gap.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by Not your average framer » Thu 31 Mar, 2022 8:58 am

Hi Dave,

Yes you can produce them from factory finished mouldings and why wouldn't you? They stll look really great and this can also be the smart thing to do with off-cuts and left overs. They are visually very appealling and much better in your shop window, than in the rubbish bin! The pictures look great!
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Mark Lacey

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Re: A frame within a frame?

Post by Justintime » Thu 31 Mar, 2022 12:07 pm

Estelle,
Your second example, have a look at Larson Juhl 432167348 and 265975. Not saying they're perfect, just an example of how they're out there prefinished.

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