Worried about the weight

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Rainbow
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Worried about the weight

Post by Rainbow »

I’m a bit worried about the weight of a job I’m doing. The size is 75 x 55, and I’m having to use 3mm glass because my nearby stockist has stopped selling 2mm glass. The problem is that the moulding will only take one wedge. Fortunately I can use a 12mm wedge but with the 3mm glass, it feels very heavy for one wedge. Am I worrying unnecessarily, or will gluing and one 12mm wedge be OK for the weight? If necessary I could I make a several-mile trip to my next nearest stockist to get some 2mm glass but I’d rather not if it’s not necessary.
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by fusionframer »

Once pinned, the glue will hold the the joint together and generally most glue is stronger than the timber these days. Just make sure you apply glue first to joints, leave 3-5 minutes before joining the frame. Glue will soak up into end grain so apply a little first to soak in a seal.

If you are worried, does the moulding have a decent rebate so to make a sub frame to give extra support? It can be quite a thin frame and still give good additional support.

My gut feel without knowing the exact moulding and surface area being glued is that it will be ok.

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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by Not your average framer »

If you really need to, you can often add a sub frame in to rear of many smaller frames. I ofter need to do this when a customer is really determined to have a really large artwork in a really skinny moulding. Excessively thin moulding seems to be very popular for large photographin items and large posters. I don't mind using piece of standard sized battern type wood for my local hardware shop in cases like this. I there is no space available for anything, except a really shallow battern I usually find ways of going shallower and wider to ensure adequate rigidity.
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by Justintime »

A subframe is ideal but if this feels like overkill, I have braced the centre top to bottom with a thin batten using small mirror plates to fasten. This will at least prevent any bowing at the bottom from the pressure of the d rings being pulled inwards. Obviously I would set the cord for 2 hanging points to reduce the stress on the frame as well.
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by Justintime »

Strap clamping the joint while the glue cures for 24 hours will help give it the best possible adhesion.
Bottom line, listen to your gut.
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by prospero »

I would definitely use a subframe - and a fairly sturdy one. Also, I would NEVER hang a picture of that size and weight
using cord/wire. Engineer a French Cleat into the subframe and use very deep wall fittings.

Here is a big subframe it did once. As you can tell, the joints are lapped rather than mitred which makes it super strong.
The timber is pine 8mm x 100mm tongue and groove with the tongue ripped off. An economical option.
It is made from two layers stuck together which makes it easy to form the 'laps' and makes it very stable.
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by fusionframer »

I think we could all be over complicating this, but without the exact size of the moulding being used, it is difficult to know.

I picked up a spare piece of 4mm laminated glass in my workshop today to check its weight ( it was 50cm by 110cm) and i reckon i would happily have that is an obeche frame which was 20mm wide and use double screw d rings (angled correctly). 20mm would take 2 wedges, but this was 4mm and a bigger bit of glass.

If you can let us know the moulding width and height that will help, but maybe make the frame, stick the backing board and glass in and add cord and see if there are any clear signs of trouble.

One thing i make sure is to tell my customers to hold the frame correctly. How many times have you made a thin frame only for the customer to pick it up by the top rail. Despite seeing them do this over the years, i have yet to see one break.

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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by Not your average framer »

I too have also seen customers pick up a heavy frame by the narrow top rail, i'm just to one break, but I have to admit that it has made me cringe once, or twice. You will develop your own instinct about the best way to do these things after a whle, as we all will do in time. Some of us are more cautious than others, from what I hear we all manage to get it right.
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by Abacus »

75x55 what? Inches or cm?
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by Rainbow »

Many thanks for all these replies.

Sorry, I should have said 75 x 55cm and this is the moulding:

https://www.wessexpictures.com/B1814.html
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by Not your average framer »

If that moulding has a normal rebate width of about 6mm, the width left available for underpinning is about 14mm and it's a reasonable depth as well, so I'm thinking that it should be possible to produce reasonably secure corner joints in that for that size of frame, I often a bit more cautious than most and I would try and stiffen the frame with a smaller than usual sub frame depth, but with a decent sub-frame width to ensure enough rigidity just to keep things nice and stiff.

This is not really something to get un-necessarily woried about, by a little bit extra stiffness just for a little extra peace of mind, won't require a really massive sub frame at all, and need not cost an excessive cost to do this.
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by fusionframer »

Thanks for posting moulding. I would be pretty sure you are fine. There is plenty of surface to get a good strong joint. If you have a strap clamp, i would follow justintime's advice and use it.

Cheers

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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by Rainbow »

Thank you for these further comments, much appreciated.
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by Not your average framer »

This is not the first time that this subject has come up. Has anyone got any defined crrtirea which the tend to work to which they would like to share. For myself, I don't actually work to anything which is easy to explain at all. I just follow my instincts and it seems that is what most others are doing as well, but it's not very helpful to new framers who as yet don't always have a wealth of experience to help them. Quite often I manage to side step the issue by using certain preferred mouldings, which I like to use for such requirements. As most of you who read my posts will know, I like to use various bare wood mouldings and adding a sub-frame made from basic flat bare strip wood profiles screwed in place, so there are two different wood grain patterns fixed together while hopefully any tendancy to bow within one piece of wood will be to some extent counteracted by the differences in the wood grain of the other piece of wood seems like a bit of a plan. Quite a lot of narrower mouldings are not well suited for the usual fairly large sub-frame profiles.

Not everyone has the facilities to trim the sub-frame profiles to make them smaller, neater and less noticable. It is for most of us much easier to buy a suitable piece of strip wood, or battern from a local supplier and fix this is place with some suitable screws. I have some useful stepped and countersunk drills called "Screwsinkers", but I also have a pocket hole jig and a very cmprehensive box with multiple sizes and types of pocket hole screws. There is no reason why the pocket hole jig cannot be used to drill holes at a controlled angle sideways into these makeshift sub-frames and thereby enabling all the screws to be at consistent angles and positions to each other. Neatness is what most of us are striving for and I fit it very simple and straight forwardly to tape over these screw holes with the usual brown gummed paper tape. I use a heavy weight 100gsm thickness of gummed paper tape from a local packaging supplier, which is not only much more opaque that the more easily available 70gsm thickness tapes, but the coat weight gum thickness increases with the thicker weight gummed paper tape and therefore the adhesion is a lot better as well.

The drilled holes are not at all obvious, when covered by the 100gsm brown gummed paper tape. Nice thick gummed paper tape in very useful for hiding where stacked mouldings are joined together, or just making things less tidy areas at the rear of a frames look at lot neater, with minimal effort. I much prefer gummed Paper tape, to the self adhesive varieties, not only is the overall finished result very nice, but it also it going to stay stuck for a very long time.
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by prospero »

Rainbow wrote: Tue 12 Apr, 2022 6:41 pm Many thanks for all these replies.

Sorry, I should have said 75 x 55cm and this is the moulding:
Ignore my previous reply. I was thinking inches. :lol: :Slap: :clap: :ninja: :head: :shock:
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi Peter,

Do you ever cut down those thin strips which you use for producing sub-frames into narrower widths, for use in smaller frames. I just thought that it might be something which you might already do. I was just thinking that your idea is a very interesting, but very easy technique which does not require any special equipment, or special know how. Really great for those who only have basic framing equipment. Although I don't do this myself, I really like your idea!

:clap: :clap: :clap:
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by Steve N »

That moulding shold be okay for 3mm glass of that size, don't bother with a subframe, as that will only ADD to the weight :giggle: :sweating:
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by prospero »

Not your average framer wrote: Wed 13 Apr, 2022 11:23 am Hi Peter,

Do you ever cut down those thin strips which you use for producing sub-frames into narrower widths, for use in smaller frames. I just thought that it might be something which you might already do. I was just thinking that your idea is a very interesting, but very easy technique which does not require any special equipment, or special know how. Really great for those who only have basic framing equipment. Although I don't do this myself, I really like your idea!

:clap: :clap: :clap:
Hi Mark.
I can't sat I've ever cut them down, but no reason not to. The available subframe moulding are probably adequate for most
applications phatically if you take advantage of the bevel to use a French cleat. The subframe in the example I posted also
served to allow me to use four boards to make the backing board the cross pieces align with the joins and the boards were just
tacked on.
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi Peter,

Yes, saw the tacked on cross members. A nice trick! I realise that currently most of the forums members, will not have access to the necessary means to be able to reduce the width of your tongue and grooved boards, but some will see the potential and arrange something in orders to give them an easy ways of solving such needs without costing them too much in these difficult times.
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Re: Worried about the weight

Post by prospero »

You can buy thin 'stripwood' from the DIY sheds, but it is hideously expensive. It's nice graded quality but
a bit nicer than it needs to be.
The T&G is a bit ratty but it's relatively cheap and does the job. :D
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