Trade priced frames for local artists.

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Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by Not your average framer »

In the past, I had a lot of enquires for local artists for me to produce batches of frames, but while I have been recovering from my stroke and somewhat slowy sorting out my really rather over crowded shop. (I moved from a much bigger shop and I still needing to down size some of my equipment and stock, hopefully sooner rather than later). I have not had so many enquires while my shop has been closed at all. It's difficult to tell, but the market for frames for local artists could be looking potentially better than it used to be for me if it can be done right. Most of the frames, which I have produces in batches for local artist have been produced as deep box frames in obeche and these where not always exactly ideal for me. As many of these artist were only interested in quite large frames, I ended up with quite a lot of left overs and off cuts which were not large enough to may frames of a size, which were able to be used for futher frames to interest other local artists. Ready made deep frames do sell to other customers upto a point, but excessively large quantities of deep frame moulding left overs can to easily exceed demand.

As it happens, I alread stock quite a decent quantity of a rather nice deep pine moulding, which is usefully cheaper that the deep obeche moulding and is very quick and easy to paint with a piece of sponge. The pine grain shows through the paint really rather nicely and this particular moulding hardly ever has any knots at all, so maybe it ticks a lots of the right boxes. The cheap shops don't appear to produce anything much of reasonable looking deep box frames in any reasonable sizes and this appears to be why some of these artists have been coming to me n the past. Too many of these artists are quite financially quite challenged and if they can find something cheaper elsewhere, after they have wasted my time trying to negociate a lower price, presumably they buy from cheap suppliers from somewhere else. As always the cost of the glass, is always the main area which you can't beat. I'm still thinking about this, but I am beginning to think that I may have hit on something looks like it works. This deep box frame pine moulding is deeper than I actually need and so I am intend to cut away part of the depth from the rear and use this to create the necessary glass spacers.

I have a surface planer with which to quickly and easily clean up the sawn faces, so the glass spacers will be pretty much free. There's a fair bit of speculation about this on my part, but it I am thinking that this might just be something which will work for much better than previously. I still have the potential to cut down any left overa and off cuts of this particular moulding into mouldings for standard depth frames and more spacers, or slips. I hopefull it a win / win for me. This moulding is a very nice looking moulding at a very helpful price to me. I already cut it up into different moulding depths and charge extra for the deeper ones. The fact that I already sell this same moulding in three different depths, helps me to justify higher prices for the ones with greater depths. Sponge painted with white paint these moulding do not look cheap at all. Maybe this might be helpful to others forum members as well.
Mark Lacey

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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by JFeig »

Mark, this is going on everywhere. The world economy has changed over the last 3 years. Artists are not always attuned to the realities of the world (being street wise) and how it has changed.

Stick your feet planted in reality vs what it used to be. If you cannot make a profit from your labors, let them stew in theirs. Fuel for the car is about £2.00 / l where you are.
Jerry
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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi Jerome,

I am pretty sure that the is a really worthwhile profit to be made from this doing it may way, but I definitely want to do it for quantity orders only and where the frames in a batch will be the same size. Producing frames only in ones and twos is not going to be financially worthwhile enough for me to be even interested in doing it. I not interested in doing this for normal type frames, but just for the deep box fames where artists are float mounting their artworks in deep frames for themselves. It's not so easy for artists to obtain these sort of frames and these are not so easly available at really low prices.

As a result, I can sell these at much more worthwhile prices. These larger deep box frames, are the only ones that I am intend to produce and sell. Everything else is being sold to artists from bigger concerns at much lower prices and there's no reasonable prospect of any worthwhile income for me, where the competition are too cheap for me too compete with. Besides all that, I'm not interested in becoming a bigger business relying on internet based mail order sales. That's just not me. I've done the sums and I think it's a goer, just for my local market only!

I don't want too be too busy, as I am only too well aware of my own limitations resulting from my stroke. Hammering myself to make lots of money is not at all what I want. I will be seventy later this year and just want a comfortable semi retirement level of work for a very short level of time. I won't be doing this forever, but some level of work is good for my recovery and also my sanity. I get want enough to keep me active for about third to a half of my previous working hours before my stroke.

As soon as I can get my stock properly organised and sorted out, I am going to be giving quite a lot of it away free to these who will come and take it away. My stock is not rubbish all of the less interesting stock was already clear out before I needed to move premises for years ago. My main problem is that I really hate not having something to do at all.
Mark Lacey

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― Geoffrey Chaucer
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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by JFeig »

Good for you. Do what you do best, at a fair price. Offering the artist's bargain prices for larger quantities(like per 10 or 12) and not for one's and two's is the way to go.
BTY, I passed 74 last December.
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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by Not your average framer »

74 then? I guess there hope for me yet! Going back to these frames for artist's my material costs are probably about £4 to total at present, but given how things are who knows where my costs will rise to in time. I'm going to describe them to my customers as gallery deep boxes frames suitable for float mounting artworks. There's a some labour to be allowed for and the basic handfinishing using a small piece of sponge to quickly wipe the paint onto the frame. The plan is to selled these at full retail for a 20 inch by 30 inch frame for about £35. In quantity as a trade priced deal, I would offer a 20 percent discount for quantities of 6, or more and perhaps a 25 percent discount for Quantities of 12, or more. I think that trying to get discounts for larger quantities is not really very realistic in such difficult times. However 6 frames like this dicounted by 20 percent works well for me at a total price to a trade customer at £84 total is quite worthwhile to me and it's not really hammering the artist's either. It's quite a quality looking frame, so nobody is going to complain about what they are getting for their money. I'm not joking it's a very claasy look.

Provided that I don't get really crazy amounts of off cuts, I don't have any difficulties in producing and selling frames produced from the left overs and off cuts. I am thinking that having some smaller frames available at graduated prices according to the frames size, will probable help to make the Discounted larger ones look like value for money, or at least that is what I am hoping. I like to ring the changes a little and perhaps add a glued in slip and the front of the frame and therefore sell an upgraded version at an increased price. Slips are generally a very cheap way of adding a lot more class and if the extra cost seems well worth it for not a lot of extra money, customers very often will go for the upgraded option. I don't try to screw the last penny out of upgrades like this at all. These upgraded versions of the same frame, need to look like a very worthwhile reason for spending the extra! I believe that my customer are inteligent enough to easily figure out if they want to go for an upgraded frame style. And I just leave it at that!

I point out that these frames in the window are in fact samples of what is available, but I price them just in case anyone just happens to want to buy them. I deliberately point out that these are not part of my range of ready made frames are will not be sold at a typical price for ready made frames. Which of course they are not. Because they are such good quality frames, the are very helpful for framing rush framing jobs, which can be done while you wait. I do definitely make a distinction with noticed in my shop window so that customer's can easily discern what is made for a ready made frame and what is being display as a sample of quality framing and I let them choose! My less expensive stuff is still very easily demonstrated to be really well made and good quality, but my really special "niche market" quality stuff realy stand out from just about anything! Customers who are used to buying quality have an educated eye and know what they are looking for with no need for anyone to tell them when they are looking at the real thing! You don't advertise that you have items like this, but just wait for people to find you, nice stuff is not the sort of thing which you advertise.

Of course, I still my bread and butter stuff to help me keep paying the bill and this is where I still need to do some nce stuff at prices which looks like value for money. Quite a lot of us probably know what makes for really nice quality, which can be produce to be sold at up market prices, while still being profitable for us and yet still good value for money to those with a discerning eye. I learnt about this buying and selling through the auctions and dealing with a few friends in the antique trade. It's a difficult market, but antique delears look after those who look after them and friends in the antique trade are the people to learn from!
Mark Lacey

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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by JFeig »

Assist me with your math........

At £35.00 per frame times 20% off is £28. £28 times 6 is £168. Where did the £84 come from?
Can you make and finish those 6 in one day? If so, can you can survive on that?
If it is, then go for it.

Cheers,
Jerry
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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by Not your average framer »

I was using a calculator. must be finger problems. I make all sort of silly mistakes these days.
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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by Justintime »

£4 material costs is a pipe dream Mark. A sheet of 2mm float glass is almost £10 these days, so that's £5 a frame for glass before you add any labour/overheads/profit...
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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by Not your average framer »

I had no idea! I buy my glass in quantities of 20 to 30 sheets at a time and I last bought my glass about 3 1/2 years ago and have been busy using up left overs and off cuts, which I have a separate rack full of and various piece also cut to standard sizes. So I'm a bit out of date these days! I buy quite large quantities glass because of where the prices breaks are and this saves me money! Having just spoken to Wessex who supply my glass They price which they have quoted me is not maybe about double what I last needed to pay.

I also have several boxes of speciality glass as well. I like to keep a good stock of glass having been almost could out once when there was a difficulty in get glass at one time. I generally re-order long before I getting short of glass. I've always got plenty of mouldings, but I find that it's prudent to key a good eye on my stocks of backing board and glass, as they can easily catch me out if I'm not keeping my eye on the ball.
Mark Lacey

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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by JonathanB »

I find that I am seeing quite a few artists who haven’t spent much in the last few years and they definitely divide into two camps. They are all a bit surprised at how prices have gone up lately but the more business minded clients then start talking about raising their own prices to mirror the new reality and maintain a margin. The less realistic ones decide that they ‘couldn’t possibly charge that much’ for their work and then do two things. Firstly, they firmly stick their heads in the sand and pretend that price inflation isn’t happening, and then they try to pressure me to lower my prices. Guess which type of client I prefer?
As an industry we shouldn’t be profiteering, but we have an obligation to each other to educate our clients and ensure that they understand that everything, not just their electricity bills, are going up and that they have to pay properly for professional services. Justin’s point about glass is well made. When I tell clients what’s happened to the price of glass alone, the penny drops. Sadly, I’ve had to say goodbye to a few clients who flatly refuse to change. Fortunately, I seem to have enough of the ones who are prepared to.
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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by Gesso&Bole »

I agree, in my experience, artists fall into 2 categories. I call them 'selling artists' and 'non-selling artists'. A selling artist makes a living from producing and selling a product. Although they may be keen to keep costs down, they understand that they have to present their product in such a way as to make it attractive to their prospective customers. If they are selling artwork in the £10s the frame needs to be functional and inoffensive, if they are selling in the £100s then the frame needs to be appropriate to hang on the wall of a well-furnished house, if they are selling in £1000s then it needs to be more upmarket to reflect the sort of environment that it will end up in.

The non-selling artists I cater for once a year when I do a market stall type sale where I sell all the old frames that have come in for re-framing, plus any cock ups and oddments I find on my annual clear out. They can have my junk frames for £5 until they're gone.

As for Trade Pricing, I only give a discount if it is actually going to be cheaper than normal for me to produce the frames. This would be based on sizes, or on quantity. My normal pricing software will calculate what I need the price to be for a one off. But it will add in plenty of allowance for wastage. So, for example a frame that is approximately a quarter of a sheet of mountboard/glass/backing might be calculated in the software on a third or half a sheet of materials to allow for bespoke framing wastage. For a retail customer I might give a small % discount if there were were a few the same size. But for a trade customer I would approach it differently . . . .

First of all I take (more) control of the specification - particularly sizes to be efficient for board sizes. But also steering towards cost effective and on trend mouldings. Then I work out a minimum batch size that is feasible for me, so to carry on the example above, if I can get 4 out of a sheet of board I might set the minimum batch at 4 or 8 or 12. Once I have agreed the batch size with the customer, I calculate costs to me (inc shipping etc) of all the materials I need to buy in (even if I have them in stock) and then how long I think it will take me to make (12) frames the same. Based on my hourly rate I will then quote the customer a one off price (normal retail) and a price for a batch of say 12. So this might come out at £60 for one, but £456 for 12 (£38 each) for example.
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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by prospero »

If only artists would give a bit of thought to the practicalities they could save a lot of money. For instance, if they produce
work that needs a piece of glass 25x33" that will need a full sheet. If they made it 24x36 you could get 2 panes from a sheet.
There are lots of ways that life for the framer can be made easier and life for the artist can be made cheaper.
Unfortunately, some artists tend to be very full of themselves and have picked up just enough knowledge about framing to be
a pain in the proverbial. :lol:

If I hear, "Do you use acid-free mountboard?" once more I will scream. No I won't.... I'll reply, "Do you use acid free watercolour paper?". :giggle:

Most substrates that artists use are acidic as hell. :evil:

I like to establish a rapport with (working) artists and we can generally nail down a design. That becomes their 'signature' frame and I
don't frame other's works in the same way.

Which is nice. :clap:
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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by Not your average framer »

I get them buying a really horrible frame from a car boot sale, or charity shop and wanting my to frame something it that frame that always the wrong shape and wrong size. It seem that they thing that they are going to save money by getting the frame somewhere else. Don't you love customers like this!

:head: :head: :head:
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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi Jeremy,

Do you have much sucess selling customer old frames at £5 each? I sometimes, when I nothing better to do breal up larger frames and many a pair of identical frames. Sometimes I price them and put them in the window and other times I have a bargain box. These always someone who want to re-negoicate the prices in the bargain box. I don't know where people get these ideas from! They always seem to be driving expensive cars, but won't pay £5 for a nice frame. Crazy!

I get stuck with a bit more than half of what go in the bargain box. There nothing wrong with them, but they will buy something costing, which not a good without even thinking about it from Ikea. I given up trying to figure it out.
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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by prospero »

Artists (all customers in fact) get fixated with the cost of the physical frames. In reality the majority of the cost is
in the labour required. They get a frame from a charity shop for £5. Then they are faced with the problem of inveigling
their art into it. This may be possible but the labour involved can exceed the cost of a completely new frame to a great extent.
But that's not their way of thinking. They have a frame - sorted. :lol: If you tell them it's going to cost £100 to use their
£5 frame they think you are trying to rip them off. Understandable to some extent, but they aren't the one who has to do it. :roll:
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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by Gesso&Bole »

Mark

I keep the £5 frames completely separate to my normal framing business. This is really about clearing out the workshop not about what they are worth. And in reality they range from £5 to £50 but I sell them very cheaply at our village fair once a year. I have a CMC so I cut mounts with multiple (photo size) apertures for the bigger frames. Then I measure each frame and put a size and price sticker on each one, and then just pile them all up on the stall. I put the proceeds to Cancer Research, and it gives me an opportunity to show the locals that I exist, and that I frame pictures, so I hand out a lot of business cards. My objective on the day is not to take any frames back home with me! Last year, late on in the afternoon I had a rather annoying know-it-all artist haggling over a £10 frame. Would I take £8? No, but I will take £20 for everything on the table (there were about 15 frames left). I grabbed his money, and helped him carry them to his car before he changed his mind.
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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by Not your average framer »

I have spent a bit of time pluging the lastest prices into my spread sheets for my last prices for my ready made frame. Ouch! They don't make good reading at all. Geepers, I was not expecting to be needing to charge as much as I now need to for ready made frames! Good gracious! Prices have gone up and un-believable amount already. I bought a good stock of pine mouldings, before all these prices went up, so I've saved myself a bit of money. Unfortunately, looking forward it's going to cost me a lot more when I need to re-order. The unfortunate increase in glass prices is definitely not helpful at all. I'm also having a big re=think about what I was planning to do with some of the mouldings, which I decided to buy about 3 1/2 years ago. I am actually going to be quite selective, regarding the intended uses that I originally had for them. I never expected both the coming recession and the problems with rising prices. One such problem by itself is bad enough, but both of them together is a pretty serious issue.

The quickest way to get my shop up and running is probable to get ride of some of my older stock, just so that I can get my shop open and up and running as soon as possible!
Mark Lacey

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Re: Trade priced frames for local artists.

Post by Not your average framer »

Earlier this morning, I re-adjusted my intended ready made frame prices a little and I now feel my plan is back on course. I did not need to re-adjust my prices to a level which has affected my price and profits, as much as I thought at all which is good news. Having said all that, I not looking forward to any further increases in material cost, as further adjusting the balance between sales prices and profit margins, does not seem so worthwhile. I am hoping that a selling a few ready made frames will partly help towards some of my business running costs in some way.

I have a useful quantity of frame rims, which I made up mostly from left overs from bargain bundles from Frinton Mouldings, using up what was left over after making up customer frames. Some of these frames are mouldings such as the older Y range stuff, but there's also some more up to date stuff there as well. After thinking about it, at least some of this stuff is going to be knocked out cheap, as clearance type stuff. I can't really be bothered to much, with spending too much time on this stuff.

I have to admit to being really taken a back, by just how much some of my material costs have gone up. Not having bought very much for about three and a half years, I was blissfully unaware of just how much things have changed. Fortunately, I have a pretty good stock of most things, much of which accomilated over many years. I can probably get by for a few years mostly on my existing stock and this will really help quite a lot.
Mark Lacey

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