Advice Appreicated

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scameron77
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Advice Appreicated

Post by scameron77 »

Hi all, stumbled onto the forum by chance and would really appreciate some direction. I may use wrong terminology so please give me the benefit of the doubt.

Due to losing my hearing through Covid I now need to find a new career, my previous one (airline pilot) is one I can't return to.

Over the past months I've managed to secure rights to be a supplier of prints. To increase saleability I'd like to include mounts as an option for the customers.

Ideally I'm looking to provide 3mm bevelled cream/white core mount in various colours and sizes. However at present I'm in a bit of a dilemma:
  • 1./ One option would be to buy them from a supplier already cut, I don't think this would be cost effective in the long run and while the frame sizes may be standard the image themselves vary in size. Also I would be limited in the colours I could carry.

    2./ The side I'm leaning to is purchasing card and doing it myself, ideally with some sort of automated device. I have looked at the Valiani Pro but it is £4k and a tad prohibitive for a startup.
I'd welcome any advice on mount suppliers, alternatives to the Valiani Pro (including entry level or second hand machines able to cope with 3mm cuts) or pre-cut mount suppliers that could offer both a bespoke and cost effective solution.

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by Rainbow »

Welcome scameron77. Can you tell us approximately what quantity you envisage cutting (eg per week/month). Some machines are better suited to volume cutting than others, but if you don't envisage doing large volumes, a lower spec model will probably be OK and it will cost you less money.
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by scameron77 »

Thanks for your input Rainbow.

At present its a bit of an unknown.

Maybe 50 a week initially but that is a guess. But it could potentially take off and I'd like to be future proof ready.
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by Not your average framer »

I see that you are guessing at selling perhaps about 50 prints a mount. You say it's a guess, well it's nearly always a guess anyway, but whatever the amount is going to be, it is usually for there to be good and bad periods throughout the year and most of us at least try to allow for this. Some degree of diversifaction can often be a good thing to help spread some of your business income into other areas to help to offset slower months for business. An immediately obvious one would be to cut mounts for customers other than the customers who are just buying prints if this is possible to do.
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prospero
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by prospero »

I agree it would make more sense to 'farm it out' if you can find a nearby framer with a CMC. There are many
(some on this Forum) who will do it happily at 'trade' prices but the carriage and packing will kill the deal a bit.
Do they have to be 3mm? I say this because you can cut 2.4mm board on a manual cutter in one go. Any thicker
is a tad too much. 3mm+ can be done on a manual using multiple cuts but would be a bit irksome and would
take you all week to do 50. 2.4 could be done in a hour or two. The bevels still look 'generous'.

If you invest in a CMC then it would take a while to pay for itself and you'd need it running all day to earn it's keep.
* They are complicated machines and like all complicated machines they can break down and leave you stranded*.

There isn't very much to go wrong on a manual. I've had mine since 1986 and it hasn't let me down yet. :clap:
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by Fruitini »

In addition to what’s been said the technical support with a CMC is as important as the machine itself. So much can (and will) go wrong. Cutting 3mm plus boards really put these machines through their paces and any problems will be magnified on thick boards. A Valiani bought through TGS Repairs will get you lifetime support with that machine. They get some fantastic second-hand models through and will no doubt be able to find you a good deal. These guys are magicians on the Valiani and will always back you up.
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by scameron77 »

Thanks so much for the input so far everyone. I'm based in Lanarkshire in Scotland, so if anyone reading this is in my locality I'd appreciate a message with regard to "trade-rates" of subbing the work out.

Just a few more clarifications. This is not my primary income maker, this is an offshoot but has potential to do well if it is marketed correctly.

@fruitini - thanks for the advice, I think a lot of people overlook aftercare.

@prospero - I'll avoid the 3mm stuff then, there seems no need, I just seen it mentioned in the spec of a supplier and thought that was standard. I'll happily go with 2.4mm going forward.

The high initial cost did frighten me. Happy to consider entry level cutters. Does all the software work on Mac's? Can anyone suggest any cost effective machines?

@nyaf - Just to clarify a few things. the 50 per week I cited, it will be a mixture of various different sizes of mounts from:

(100 x 150)
(130 x 180)
(210 x 300)
(300 x 400)
(400 x 500)
(500 x 700)

I expect to require about 50 of these per week. (when you say "50 prints a mount" do you mean 50 holes cut in a A1 board? - this is my naivety asking). The internal cut size to accommodate the pictures will change however. If things take off how I hope they will the thing that concerns me is the volume of repetitive mounts to cut hence looking at maybe bringing it in house from the start and it being automated.

Some may have two/four apertures so mullions (correct terminology?) Do framers use architecture words?

Again maybe my naivety - the prices I've seen so far via some of the trade websites seem to be in excess of what I can source at my local Range (part of Iceland group). I can get 4x A1 sheets for £10. I can't comment on the quality compared to the likes of Daler-Rowney and from memory none of their stock is ribbed.

The next question is frames. I'm happy to just purchase standard stock sizes and supply. I'm guessing the volume retailers on the high street (IKEA, Range, Dunelm) sell theirs around £7 for an A4 due to economies of scale and volumes produced or is it possible to source them myself for cheaper?

Example: https://www.therange.co.uk/home-furnish ... BwE#149810
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prospero
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by prospero »

There are a few tricks to cutting 2.4 board on a manual cutter.

If the stops are calibrated for 1.4mm (std thick) board you have to compensate for the extra thickness
by subtracting 2mm from the lower stop (the one nearest you) reading. So if you have a 70mm margin set
the stop at 68mm. The top stop doesn't need this as the difference in the plunge point is taken care of by
the extra blade protrusion.

The blade needs careful setting. Use a scrap piece to test the depth of cut. You need a lot more blade out than
you think, but it's vital not to have too much. The friction is nearly double on the cut so it's more critical than
on std board. You may find that you have to wind a bit more out as the blade tip wears. Don't flinch at putting a
fresh blade in every few mounts. Blades are a lot cheaper than board.

Manual cutters are not cheap exactly (Well decent ones). But there is little to go wrong and if they are not maltreated
and given a bit of lube now and then they'll serve you well. Better to get a pro-quality secondhand one than a new 'hobby' one.
Mine cost me close to a grand in 1986. C&H. Still using it. I could cut 50 mounts in the time you'd spend programming a CMC. :lol: :ninja:

You need a very good reason to fork out for a CMC. :sweating: They win out for 'fancy' stuff like curves and lettering and wotnot
and extra thick boards. But it you never use these facilities they're a bit of an indulgence. :roll:
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by Fruitini »

scameron77 wrote: Sun 18 Sep, 2022 9:01 pm I expect to require about 50 of these per week. If things take off how I hope they will the thing that concerns me is the volume of repetitive mounts to cut hence looking at maybe bringing it in house from the start and it being automated.
Absolutely not an indulgence IMO. 50 per week is over 2500 a year with expectation of more and concerns about repetition! Anyone regularly doing this volume and not considering automation is missing an opportunity. CMC’s are built like tanks and second-hand machines will pretty much hold their value if and when the time comes to sell up. I bet I could cut 50 identical mounts in a fraction of the time Prospero could on his manual cutter. And whilst they were cutting I could work on something else or sit down and have a cuppa…!
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by prospero »

Yes. If they were identical and you have got the machine already set up. :wink:
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by Fruitini »

Does a manual cutter set itself up then?! :lol: You crack on and cut thousands of extra thick mounts by hand then! I’m happy with a few button taps! I’m confident I could cut 50 different mounts twice as fast on a CMC, they’d all be bang accurate and the arthritis wouldn’t be screaming!
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by fusionframer »

Yes it can be done on a hand cutter, but the point is what is going to be better for your business. Given this is an offshoot and not the primary income maker, the danger will be that cutting 50 mounts by hand will take your time away from your primary source of income.

I have found that efficiency when running a business will allow business growth. As an example, for a while, i was determined i did not need a dedicated tenoning machine in my joinery business. I had the morticer to cut square holes, but i could do tenons on a combination of my chop saw, table saw and spindle moulder. I then had the opportunity to buy a tenoner that did all the cuts that 3 machines did in one pass. I realised i had been an idiot and that i should have always had one. I recently finished a job making 32 windows which meant 256 mortice and tenon joints. I couldn't have quoted for this job if i didn't have that machine.

The point will be that if you invest in a cmc, it not only makes your job more efficient for the 50 mounts, but means you can through marketing find other income streams that you could not look if you have a hand mount cutter.

Years ago, my old boss said always buy the best equipment you can afford. My opinion would be if your finances can run to a good cmc, then it is a no brainer.

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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by Not your average framer »

Sorry 50 prints a mount was a typing error. ! meant to type 50 prints a month!
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by Rainbow »

scameron77 wrote: Sat 17 Sep, 2022 11:48 pm Maybe 50 a week initially
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by JFeig »

Beware of the grades of mount board that is available. There are boards that will change color with age and those that will last.

The basics: most boards have added buffering agents added to adjust the PH levels. The term "ACID FREE" is meaningless. It is a nebulous marking term from the paper industry and and a scientific Quality assurance term.

standard board - made from wood pulp - lowest grade
alpha-cellulose - made from wood pulp that has had the lignin removed
alpha-cellulose with added Zeolites (removes the pollution)
100% cotton - the purest material - some types are available in unbuffered status (special purposes)

As far as CMC production speed. I used to cut hundreds of ready-made mounts from shorts. With the boards precut to a standard size 8x10 to 16x20 outside dimension, I could cut from 75-100 mounts per hour.
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scameron77
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by scameron77 »

Thanks for all the tips and pointers so far. Certainly a few have altered my thought process and direction.

Can anyone suggest a good entry level CNC and an idea of cost? I'm happy to consider a second hand one if the manufacturer has a good reputation for longevity. Remember this is not my primary income source and an offshoot.

@JFeig - As for the mounts. I'm more mass market than the cotton core basic rather than high end. Of the 4 you mentioned what is the ballpark cost trade for an A1 sheet of each? (I appreciate this is dependant often on order quantity but just so I get an idea). I suspect I'll have to carry most colours.

Also bumping this question from earlier as it didn't seem to get much traction. I hope asking about cheap premade frames isn't considered sacrilegious on a framers forum.
  • The next question is frames. I'm happy to just purchase standard stock sizes and supply. I'm guessing the volume retailers on the high street (IKEA, Range, Dunelm) sell theirs around £7 for an A4 due to economies of scale and volumes produced or is it possible to source them myself for cheaper?

    https://www.therange.co.uk/home-furnish ... BwE#149810
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by Justintime »

As far as I'm aware there are no entry level CMC's ("computerised Mount cutter"),unless you can find an old pneumatic machine.
You could find a Gunnar F1 for £4K+ and an F1 hybrid for £5k+.
With a few phone calls to your local framers, you could easily and quickly establish costs for your needs, supplied by them. My local large scale framer buys mountboard buy the pallet at a vastly reduced price per sheet, way less than I do. If someone wanted 50 mounts I send them there as even with a cmc I can't compete on price. Taking on a machine like a cmc is no small undertaking. Space for the machine, storage space for bulk quantities of mountboard. Factor in material wastage and downtime/training to use the machine properly.
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by Rainbow »

If it helps to test the water whilst you get started, Wessex Fine Art offer a mount cutting service - https://www.wessexpictures.com/wessex_fine_art.html
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by Justintime »

For bulk frames, there are companies that supply "ready made" frames to the framing/retail industry that I would assume are a higher quality than Ikea/The Range. You could research contract picture framers too like artimaging.co.uk.
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Re: Advice Appreicated

Post by scameron77 »

Justintime wrote: Tue 20 Sep, 2022 10:08 am As far as I'm aware there are no entry level CMC's ("computerised Mount cutter"),unless you can find an old pneumatic machine.
You could find a Gunnar F1 for £4K+ and an F1 hybrid for £5k+.
With a few phone calls to your local framers, you could easily and quickly establish costs for your needs, supplied by them. My local large scale framer buys mountboard buy the pallet at a vastly reduced price per sheet, way less than I do. If someone wanted 50 mounts I send them there as even with a cmc I can't compete on price. Taking on a machine like a cmc is no small undertaking. Space for the machine, storage space for bulk quantities of mountboard. Factor in material wastage and downtime/training to use the machine properly.
Thanks Justin,

I'll contact the artimaging in the next few days.

The second hand Gunnar is the same price as a new Valiani that I mentioned in my opening post. Shame there's not much below that 4k threshold. I will look into something local to me as you suggested. Maybe when starting up it makes sense to farm it out and take the hit in pennies over pounds for a setup of my own.

Any other mass picture frame suppliers in the UK?
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