Underpinner advice please?

[Steve64]

Hello. I'm after some advice on which underpinner I should buy please. There's an M3 by Framers Corner in good condition 20mins from mine or I've seen a Cassese CS79 advertised on here for £350 + 6hr roundtrip and £70 in diesel? I'm making a batch of shallow 100x80cm frames from oak to display a photography project. Any advice here would be most welcome. In a post I read on here someone mentioned the M3 struggles with hardwood: can anyone confirm or deny this please? Or should I be looking at other makes/models. I'm new to this so any help would be most appreciated. Happy to share my learning experience on here in return. Many thanks. Steve

[Gesso&Bole]

Hi Steve

Welcome to the forum

No manual underpinner is ideal for oak, but it is perfectly possible to get a good join with time and practice. I suppose it depends on how many frames you are planning to make. If your oak has a square profile it will give you less difficulty, as it is easier to get sufficient downward pressure on the moulding.

I used to have an M3 in the workshop for training purposes. It is simple, and reasonably well engineered, and can cope with most mouldings. I would not describe it as a 'production' machine. It would be perfectly good for a low volume bespoke framer. I would not buy one if I was only planning on joining regular large quantities of oak.

As for the CS79, I haven't used one to give an opinion, but I understand they are good machines.

Perhaps tell us more about how many frames you plan to join, and are they all going to be oak? Then it will be easier to advise. Have you also considered oak veneered moulding - much easier to work with if you are using a manual underpinner?

[Steve64]

Hi Jim,

Thanks very much for your warm welcome and really useful response - much appreciated.

The oak I plan on working with will have a flat square profile of approx 25mm - so sounds like that should give me a good chance with a manual machine.

As for amounts - I'm planning on making a run of 20 initially. But I do have a pipe dream of selling framed prints so would like to speculate and invest in an underpinner that could handle producing a say 10 per week (. . . you gotta be optimistic right!)

The photographic work I am displaying is macro imagery shot using high-end equipment and blown up big on an equally high-end printer. The project is all about attention to detail. So the framing needs to compliment this (I'm aware I'm a noobie, and am not going to achieve perfect results overnight, but I don't have a deadline and I'm willing to put the hours in). Given the nature of the project oak seems an appropriate choice, but I'm not set on this and am keen to experiment to find the prefect fit. I will take a close look at veneered mouldings - thanks for the suggestion.

With the number of frames and sizes mentioned above do you think the M3 (the one currently advertised close to me is £200 btw) / manual underpinner would be a sound choice or would an air powered machine be more versatile for experiments and a better fit in the long run?

Many thanks again
Steve

[prospero]

You might consider using Ash rather than Oak. It is easier to underpin and more consistent in density.
Oak is not easy to join as you can get localised hard sections. Stacking v-nails in Oak is not advisable.
The best way with Oak is the old school glue/clamp/cross nail/fill. Or get a dovetail router. (Not cheap)

[vintage frames]

The best advice anyone can ever give you is to buy a machine at least one degree of specification higher than you think you need.
That means, forget about a foot-operated underpinner.
It'll do the job it's made for but you'll soon regret having wasted your money.

You need a pneumatic underpinner, especially if you intend working with premium woods such as oak. Hold off on spending money until you see a second-hand machine available.
They all do the same thing, ie push a steel staple into the underside of a mitred picture-frame.
Having said that, only a heavy-duty pneumatic underpinner has sufficient oomph to stack one or several staples into wood as hard as oak.

Prospero gave good advice on what is considered best practice and that is, glue and clamp the mitres and then cross pin when dry.
If you are going with high quality presentation then that method will give you the tightest joints.
If you have lots of frames to join, then buy lots of clamps (band-clamps).
Finally there is a machine called a Hoffman router which does the job better and effortlessly, but as has been already said, that's expensive.

[Steve64]

Thanks Prospero. I will consider using ash. Just from the online images I've checked out looks like it could work for my project as an alternative. As a noobie looking at achieving fine and consistent results fairly quickly, it does sound like I may be biting off more than I can chew with oak. I will check out some ash samples in person and look at stains/wax options. Thanks very much for the info. Steve

[Justintime]

Hi Steve,
A pneumatic underpinner will give you a much more consistent result, but accompanied with a suitable compressor will cost considerably more. A Hoffmann dovetail router will do the job perfectly, but again these are much more expensive.
I like Jim's suggestion of veneer mouldings, if you're set on foot operated.
I'd be a bit concerned with using a 25mm width moulding for a 100x80cm frame if it's been glazed. Even Oak of this size moulding can sag at that frame size. Some Oak mouldings are deeper than others and will give more strength.
I would also strongly suggest using a good quality PVA like Titebond and clamping with a Stanley strap clamp after gluing and pinning. Imo a strap clamp is an essential bit of kit.
I have a pneumatic Cassese and a CS88 (and a hoffmann!). The CS88 is a tried and tested workhorse, still popular with low volume bespoke framers. It has adjustable fences, making it a bit more useful than the cs79. There is a pneumatic cs88 version, cs89 maybe? I believe this is a good machine too. Alternatively if you have a carpentry bench and vice, you could get someone to show you the traditional glue and pin/nail technique. Or look out for a set of old Stanley benchtop mitre clamps.
If you decide pneumatic is the way, have a look at the Cassese cs199.
Imo if your morso is cutting correctly, you cant beat a hoffmann router and a strap clamp. The hoffmann mu2 is an older cheaper model and is brilliant.

[Steve64]

Thank you very much for the advice Vintage Framer. I'm already so glad I joined this forum. I will forget a foot operated underpinner and look at either a pneumatic or router option.

I've been caught in two minds as how to approach this, and your feedback has helped me decide. I thought about starting out with some cheaper basic equipment (ie: mitre saw & hand operated underpinner) and learning the ropes via trail and error from the ground up before progressing on to more professional equipment. This is an approach I've used in my photography practice to good ends. The other option was to just jump in with high end equipment, do some research and do it right straight off the bat. And I think, as my project requires only one specific frame design, that investing the money on the most suitable professional equipment is the best way to achieve my aims.

I understand that framing is a refined specialist skill and art form in itself. I'm a practical guy but not a skilled woodworker by any means. With a lot of enthusiasm, the advice of experts on here, my newly acquired Morso, a Hoffman MU-2 and some band clamps - do you think it's realistic to expect exhibition worthy results in a few weeks. Ha, dumb question but interested to hear any thoughts.

Again, thanks so much for your advice. For me this really is the Internet coming through as it was pitched back in the 90s: a global information sharing network that helps make life better. Cheers

[Not your average framer]

I have a CS-88 and before that I used a CS-79. They are both essentially the same internal mechanism and I have joined oak on both.

There is a very definite difference in performance between a pneumatic and a manual underpinner, when it comes to joining oak, but it is worth bearing in mind that both the CS-79 and the M3 are budget range underpinners, and while I can't speak for the M3, as I have never had one, but I can tell you that the CS-79 will not handle the the highest depth of mouldings. As usual you get what you pay for. Joining oak on a manual is definitely hard work, so if your going to do that, then make sure it is an underpinner which is up to the job, because not all manual underpinners are!
Mark.

[Steve64]

Hi George, Thanks for the reply. Again, so much valuable information.
I'm not set on a manual underpinner. And after receiving advice from yourself and others on here I'm considering a secondhand Hoffman MU2 as I'm after the best possible results for large hardwood frames.
Thanks for voicing your concerns about sagging with the long edges. Again my lack of experience showing through. I figured oak would be stiff enough. I will experiment and look at increasing the width or depth accordingly. I'd like to use acrylic rather than glass to keep the weight down. But with the brief being not to compromise on quality, I'll have to experiment there too.
Thanks for the advice - I'll ensure to use a good PVA and strap.
It seems both yourself and Vintage Framer agree on the router route. There's one on eBay now I'm watching. Many thanks again. Steve

[Steve64]

Hi Mark. Thanks so much for sharing your experience of joining oak using one of the machines I first mentioned. It seems I was expecting too much from a cheaper option. So thanks for helping save me from making a costly mistake. I will play it safe and steer clear from any manual underpinner for joining hardwood. Cheers very much for such helpful and relevant advice. Steve

[Justintime]

My advice would be go for something like this:
with a Cassese CS88 for any softwoods and fillets you may want to join. A CS88 can be picked up for a few hundred. Morsos come up from £400 upwards. For decent joins, you need decent mitre cuts to start with.

[Gesso&Bole]

I would definitetely use my Hoffmann to join oak frames, in fact I often use it on moulding that would join perfectly well on my (large pneumatic) underpinner. But the Hoffmann is an expensive bit of kit, even second-hand.

Bearing in mind that you plan to use the same moulding all the time, and that is likely to be a decent sized chunk of oak/ash, it may be worth considering a woodworking approach rather than a picture framing approach to joining the corners.

By this, I mean than most top end professional picture framing equipment is designed to be able to cope with a wide range of mouldings (size/shape/material) that a bespoke framer will need to deal with. This is why these are often expensive bits of kit. As you will only be needing to join one profile makes it easier to build a 90 degree jig to allow you to use either dowels or splines to make the joints. This would get you a really strong and professional joint with much less investment in equipment.

I've just lifted a picture from google, showing a simple jig made using a biscuit jointer. Something like this would be time-consuming to adjust for different types of moulding, but would be done for pennies compared to a Hoffmann

[Gesso&Bole]

I couldn't post the picture, but here's the linkhttps://www.google.com/search?q=mitre+s ... iAWVcBot4M

[Justintime]

It's worth contacting Hoffmann UK too. They sold me an early model which was a p/x, which has been brilliant.