Hello to all

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Carol55
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Hello to all

Post by Carol55 »

Hello all,

Thank you for accepting me, I am looking forward to reading more of the historic posts, all very interesting and helpful.

I am not new to picture framing but certainly out of date and rusty to say the least.

I used to work in my cousins framing shop I my early to mid 20’s (a few years ago…). I am now setting up in a home studio looking to offer my services to my local community. I am not too concerned about high volumes of work but want to offer as wide a range as possible.

That said there are a few areas that seem to be reoccurring requests that I haven’t been the most comfortable accepting. I am hoping that I might gather a few suggestions and guidance in the following?

1 – Posters, specially the thin shiny rolled ‘Woolworths’ style posters that covered my teens bedrooms back in the day. I have had a few requests for these types of posters that are bought on holiday or from theater productions. My bug bear is that they often remain wavy even rippled once they have been flattened and my go to method of hinging (gummed tape / Japanese tissue paper and wheat starch) seem to cockle the paper. What are the’ go to’ methods to mount and frame these?

2 – For larger paper based works of art that are floated I use a method, that I have read on older posts here, called the ‘hedgehog’ method, however, what are other methods that are used for larger works that are A1 and bigger? I have had previous clients who have had Giclee prints that where A0 in size, I declined the job because I was concerned about the work sagging in the middle and also the size would have been unmanageable for me to work with in my modest studio and arthritis.

I am conscious that I have introduced myself and then rattled off a series of questions looking for advice. From what I have seen of this forum it’s a wealth of very generous advice and helpful points of experience. I also hope that you are all safe and well during these difficult times.

I will surely have other silly questions that say more about my anxiousness at starting out again … all these years later.

With kindness
Carol
Justintime
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Re: Hello to all

Post by Justintime »

Hi Carole,
Welcome to the forum!
1. If the posters are replaceable and of low value then the general consensus is to mount them, either with a vacuum press or a roll laminator. Before I bought a Hotpress vacuum press, I used to subcontract that part to a local sign writer/printer.
If valuable or not replaceable then hinging with a suitable reversible method is essential. Tape generally cockles the paper if too much water/saliva/paste is used. It is a fine line sometimes to get just the right amount!
2. I have used Y hinges many times on large pieces. It's a fiddle and time consuming and bar one job, it has been a perfect result. Y hinges are made by folding a piece of gummed tape in half (with the gum on the inside face. Fold 5-10mm of tape back on the two ends, feed the hinge through a slit in the mount board from the front leaving your two small ends for fixing. I space the hinges over the entire piece, e.g. 3 in from the top, 2 in the middle, 3 in from the bottom. There is a good illustration of this technique in "Conservation framing" by Annabelle Rushton. There are other methods, which I am still trying to get my head around...
Good luck,
Justin
Justin George GCF(APF)
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Re: Hello to all

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi Carole and welcome to the forum,

Cheap, shinny posters on thin paper are a pain and there no guarrateed way to ensure that you won't run into trouble. I suppose that dry mounting them works best, but they are not always printed on the best materials for dry mounting. It can sometimes be best to flatten them first and then try dry mounting them when they are nice and flat, not still curlly for being stored in a cardboard tube.

I don't like fixing these thin shinny posters down on to self adhesive mountboard, because once it grabs, if it's stck in the wrong place, or places, it's usually game over and there not a lot that can be done to correct the problem. Dry mounting the poster down onto an easier to handle piece of paper that's going to behave it's self can make the poster more likely to behave better.

if you are planning to float mount it, but cheap and nasty posters are too often, a complete pain in the backside and they are usually something that the customer wants framed for peanuts and there is often not enough money in the job to do a proper job at all. I don't do these jobs as cheap jobs, I either do it properly, or I don't do it at all.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
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prospero
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Re: Hello to all

Post by prospero »

Hi Carol and Welcome to the Forum. :D


On the subject of posters, they are things the J.Public have unrealistic expectations of when it comes to framing.
Many is the remark "Can't you just........" quoted. You can just put them straight in a cheap frame, but when the
waves and ripples appear to the customer's mind it's your fault. Bad workmanship, etc.
Next time you quote £200 to frame a (big, cheap) poster and they give you a look like this > :shock: , then suggest four
drawing pins. It's not worth it in the long run to go with the customer's budget and do a substandard job.

You need a big vac press. If you don't want to get one, don't accept jobs that need one. :wink: :lol:

Collectable vintage posters are a different kettle.
Watch Out. There's A Humphrey About
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Rainbow
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Re: Hello to all

Post by Rainbow »

I'm reluctant to suggest framing the poster directly against an acrylic sheet instead of glass to keep it flat if it's not of much value, because the experts haven't mentioned it so p'raps don't take any notice of this suggestion :D
Not your average framer
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Re: Hello to all

Post by Not your average framer »

The other thing that poster framing customers usually want is an un-realisticall narrow frame, which does not have adequate strength or rigidity for a frame of that size. Added to that, the usual barely usable rebate depth is not really much use for fixibng a sub-frame into it to strencthen the frame either, but most poster framing customers, won't pay the extra for the sub-frame anyway. For the amount of work necessary to do a decent job and the price that so many poster framing customers expect to pay, there is no realistic chance of getting a decent profit to cover your time, or to do a decent job. It's probably easier to send them to Ikea, or the range to buy a cheap poster frame and put it in there themselves.

I used to frame cheap poster in a basic black poster frame with a 6mm MDF back at one time, so that the back added a bit of strength to the frame and dry mounted the poster onto the 6mm Mdf. I used to charge £45 for doing it and customers used to moan about the price. By the time you had done the framing, and allow for the cost of the materials, the profit for doing the job, was not worth the agro. I try not to use basic poster frames mouldings anymore and stock Simons J/241 instead, at least it has a bit more soiidity and strength, but I only make it as a ready made frame and if it's a cheap poster then, I leave the rest to them.

Poster customers often come to me because they can't find the right size frame in the cheap shops and not because they are willing to spend more. They don't like the price quoted and I don't like the job. All to often they expect you to have the right size frame in stock and ready made and want it for a birthday tomorrow. When you explain that you can't do it there and then, some customers get annoyed. Why is it my fault? Perhaps I'll make the odd ready made poster frame and when poster framing customers come in, I can tell them that I'm sorry, but the poster is not a standard size and the frame will need to be made to special order. Not very many of these posters, seem to be the normal sizes, I suspect that they only come to me, when they can't find the right sized frame elsewhere. Life's fun don't you think!
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: Hello to all

Post by Not your average framer »

Hinging some of these highly glossy, very thin posters is a bit of a challenge too. Whatever you end up doing is not necessarily going to be easy. I wondering whether there might be some benefits in putting a price for framing thin glossy posters sign in the window, to keep the tyre kickers away, or at least to make sure that those who are still interested realise what kind of price poster framing is going to cost, before coming to discuss getting a poster framed.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Carol55
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Joined: Fri 12 Jun, 2020 2:26 pm
Location: sutton coldfield
Organisation: home framing
Interests: gardening, reading, museums

Re: Hello to all

Post by Carol55 »

Good morning,

Thank you for all your replies with great tips. I wasn’t expecting such a quick and detailed response. Thank you for making me feel welcome!

I had possibly thought that sticking the posters down onto a self-adhesive board would be the route. Your point Mark, was exactly my concern and I wouldn’t want to take the risk, especially as I do have some physical limitations… creaky old joints…
I had a look into Vacuum Press earlier this year as I was told that they can be used for a number of things including c-type photographs –
- bit of an aside but I have had a few issues with large c-type photographs. I was advised by a framer (who was based in France so not sure if this is the correct method here) to t-hinge with P90 Plus tape. They said that my gummed tape wouldn’t stick, which I had found to be true in a few instances.
They are also quite expensive so will consider this as an option if it’s going to help me with framing in general. Justin, you mentioned that you bought a Vacuum Press after using a 3rd party, may I ask how you are getting on with it and how much use it gets?

Thank you for your recommendation Justin, I will certainly look at getting a copy of Annabelle’s book. I assume that you hinge then trim the board down to size as I would suspect it would be fairly tricky to place the artwork correctly. I too am also looking at all the other methods, I read in an older post (that I now can’t find) about a multiple ‘Hedgehog’ method for larger prints, however from what I recall of this method, yours seems easier.

You have all seemingly hit the nail on the head. Yes almost every customer who has requested a poster to be framed has requested it be dead flat with no mount, a thin black frame and all for under £100. I have always felt like I was failing or cheating them so good to hear that these are as fiddly as I had thought. Prospero your idea is probably a good one but I have had enquires for old film posters (which was related to my initial second question about best techniques to frame larger paper based work). Mark, your comment about the customer not finding the right sized ‘off the shelf’ frame has been true for my recent customers, maybe I sent them your way?

Thank you again so much for your valuable time and for making me feel a little more assured that I am right to be cautious and that the customers expectations are a little high.

I have a number of questions that have now cropped up but I will try and search old posts not to take up anymore of your time. If however anyone can direct me to any of these I would be most grateful (I started writing this reply on Saturday evening and not the most tech savvy).
- Mounting large c-types, I am keen to learn the correct techniques when handling the heavy shiny papers. I also suspect that this is a process for a Vacuum Press
- Using spacers - I want to understand the correct methods. I was taught to use wood spacers or use foam board and mount card. When I use wood spacers I use wood glue to stick but was never sure if that was correct.
- Anything on lacing needlework – it’s been 25 years since I last laced work for framing

I suspect that a lot of you might be reopening this week. I want to wish you all the best and that you stay safe and well.

With kindness
Carol
Justintime
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Re: Hello to all

Post by Justintime »

HI Carol,
To first answer your questions specifically to me..
- the vacuum press is now an essential piece of equipment, very straightforward to use, once I had done the training day(see below). I am rural and it was a 2 hour round trip including waiting for the work and it seemed overly expensive once marked up to the customer (and I now have control over the quality of the work). Customers are generally unaware of the benefits and practice of mounting, so it is up to me to sell it to them. I can recommend speaking to Steve Goodall at Wessex, who also works with Hotpress. He always knows when a secondhand machine is available. Hotpress/Drytac in Bristol were also great in servicing the slightly sad machine I bought for a bargain, returning it to full working order. You might also want to consider a Drytac roll laminator, which effectively does the same job, but in a very different way. There is a free training day for both of these machines, organised by Steve Goodall. Vacuum presses are also really useful to flatten certain types of artwork!
- " I assume that you hinge then trim the board down to size". To reduce the chance of damaging the mountboard after the work is mounted, I cut the board to exact size and place two lengths of offcut on the board, to the mount width size, in an L shape held with a clamp. This way I know that when I lay the piece down up to these edges I am spot on. I have to practice the hedgehog more, I have only tried it on large pieces, with mixed results.
- Spacers, I occasionally use painted softwood barewood spacers when necessary. I use a combination of ATG tape to hold it in place while the PVA wood glue sets. I use a lot of Rose and Hollis paper wrapped spacers in white ivory and black too, they can be underpinned and if small enough do not require fixing and so are easily reversible. I use the same method of ATG and glue for foam board and mount board, except I use EVA glue for anything to do with mountboards as it is archival but also it dries clear (unlike my Titebond 3 PVA glue). A useful tip is to cut a reverse bevel on the mountboard for a clean corner join.
- Another book by Annabelle Rushton "framing and presenting textile art" is a useful reference. The Fine Art Trade Guild has a good online book store with lots of these useful books (www.fineart.co.uk). I also found a 2 day training course with Lyn Hall from Fringe Arts really useful to fill in lots of gaps in my knowledge and improve on some previous habits. (www.fringearts.co.uk)
Justin
Justin George GCF(APF)
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Carol55
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Re: Hello to all

Post by Carol55 »

Good morning,

Thank you again Justin for your reply.

Great tips and I will be looking at these books and at a Vacuum Press. I am not certain what size press I should be considering. Obviously, the biggest covers you for all possibly projects but the size it takes up in the workshop and its cost is a big consideration.

I will need to read the book you suggested, as I am not 100% clear on using ‘y’ hinges for larger works. I can’t quite picture how you would attach the hinges to the center of the works with certainty that they have attached properly.

Regarding ‘hedgehog’ method, my way of doing it is I use tissue papers and wheat starch that way I am able to control where the ‘hinge’ has paste. Once you have the correct size mount in relation to the artwork you are working on (I leave 5-15mm depending on the artwork type and size) I then paste the hinges around the mount attaching to the artwork, spacing evenly. I only attached the top hinges ‘fully’ to the mount the rest I ensure that there is space for it to expand and contract. I use ‘release paper’ or grease proof paper by covering the edges of the mount where it meets the artwork (the mount, I should add, is beveled), this ensures that any excess paste isn’t gluing to the mount. This then gives a hinge that is slightly … saggy is the only way I can describe it, but possibly only by 2mm. I should have stated that the mount card that is attached to the artwork (the fallout) is also trimmed on two sides slightly smaller than the facing mount in which it has been cut. This allows for space for the hinges to move when you reattach to the mount artwork. Finally, when re-attaching, I again use tissue paper and wheat starch, but I do not cover the area of the hinges, again to allow it the space to move. Once the hinges are dried, I then remove the release papers. I am not saying that the above is 100% accurate and I merely offer it as the method that I have historically used (that has been developed of course) and I have to credit my framing friend in France for their guidance. As I mentioned when I was looking at old threads this seems to be a well know method.
I used to leave the bottom of the artwork totally free of hinges to allow a great movement and have only recently hinged all around the artwork. I am no authority by any means, and I haven’t had high volumes to add a confident view but I have been happy with this method.
That said I haven’t used this method for anything large than A1 size. The few A1 works I have worked on have been a heavy weight paper that I wasn’t too worried about it sagging in the middle.

I am more than happy to be told I am wrong and be corrected. Life (no matter how old) is about learning.

I hadn’t considered ‘pinning’ the spacers that seems like a sensible solution and as you pointed out no need to then glue making it reversable should the glass every break/need re-glazing. I have been cutting lengths on the morso then sticking alternative lengths around the rebate with the mitered side against the rebate (if that make sense), I found that made for a cleaner finish in the corners.

Thank you all again for your input.

With Kindness
Carol
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