Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

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Miss Eclipse
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Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by Miss Eclipse »

Hi All
I have been recommended to join this forum by a couple of members, as I venture into picture framing....and boy I think I am going to need it!

A little background info.
I had a completely different career which changed due to family circumstances and I found myself moving back down to Somerset where I fitted in several part time jobs around a caring role. This has now changed and two of my part time jobs have ceased due to Covid, so I needed to reinvent myself. Around 18 months ago I got a PPI payment and the same day the cheque arrived an advert caught my eye on Facebook selling framing equipment...so I bought it. Then we had various lockdowns so no chance for any training. :head: Eventually an extremely kind member on here took me under their wing and I can knock up a frame...hoorah! But there is so, so much more and any help will be greatly appreciated.

I have the equipment.
I have some stock.
I actually have a studio! With new roof, floor and heating! And freshly painted.
I live on a B road with good passing traffic and have a small car park
I am extremely good at talking (one of my pt jobs is as a journalist) so lots of people know that I am doing this and are very keen to support me
I have spoken to my accountant and gone through “stuff”
I won’t be combining it with a gallery...just a picture framing operation
I will be working from home so no rent...another hoorah!

But that’s slightly where the positives end. My previous business was as different as you could get to this and I do feel like I am a bit lost. I probably just need a kick to get started. But I am cautious on pricing etc.

TIA Kirsty :D
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David McCormack
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Re: Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by David McCormack »

Welcome to the forum :D

The best way to get help is to ask specific questions about equipment and mounting techniques etc., but if you want some help with pricing have a read through this from Gesso&Bole:
Gesso&Bole wrote: Fri 02 Apr, 2010 6:30 pm PRICING FOR PICTURE FRAMERS

This is one of those never-ending questions . . . . .

I hope that my explanation of how I work out prices might help you price your frame hamishfour, but it may also provoke some responses from colleagues who have different opinions, and perhaps know better . . . . .

Sorry it’s a bit long, but its an important subject.

Under-pricing is rife in the UK picture framing market, so I suggest that you DO NOT look at what other people charge, and undercut. You will just end up earning even less than they do, and believe me, your customers won’t thank you for it – if you are too cheap, they will just assume you are no good!

The real answer is to look at the true costs associated with you undertaking the job, and earning a living. Spend a couple of hours working out the true financial make-up of your particular business, and then you will know that you are charging the right price to get you where you want to be.

There are 3 broad components to my pricing model.

Cost of materials
Overheads
Resources employed (time)

Cost of Materials
This should include the actual cost of the moulding, glass, boards, etc, and an allowance for the pins, glue, wedges, tape etc.

It should also include wastage. This includes the materials that you have had to purchase in order to do the job, that you didn’t actually use – say you ordered in a special colour of mountboard, and only used half the sheet – charge for the whole sheet. If it’s a standard stock colour, then charge for what you used, or rendered unuseable. So if you are left with a couple of millimetres less than half a sheet, count it as using 3 quarters of the sheet. A 2ft length of moulding left over is useless (next batch might not match exactly) so charge it in the framing cost.

Be ruthless with this – you will end up with 100s of feet worth of off-cuts that are great for the wood-burning stove at home, but nothing else because you will never get time to turn them into ready made frames. MAKE SURE YOUR CUSTOMERS HAVE PAID FOR THESE within the price you charge.

Finally include the cost of carriage (or the time and petrol if you pick up your materials).

Overheads
This will be very different if you are using your dining room table, as opposed to working from a High Street Shop, but the principles are the same.

1st make a list of all your outgoings which will be, inter alia, as below;

Rent
Rates
Utilities
Insurance
Telephone/Broadband
Website
Marketing/Advertising budget
Accountancy/Book-keeping/Govt red-tape
Bank Charges (inc credit card processing)
Cost of Finance (if you are in the lucky position where you have paid for all of your equipment, shopfitting etc etc, then I would still include a figure representing the notional cost of financing the amount of money you have invested in your business) – say equivalent to a bank loan for that amount repayable over 10 years – if that’s how long the equipment will last.
Staffing costs (inc NI etc) – don’t include yourself at this stage
Memberships and subscriptions
Equipment maintenance/blade sharpening etc

Then add it all up, so you have got a figure that represents what it costs you to run your business, and supply your service to your customers for (say) a year. Just for an example, let us assume that a retail outlet including the cost of 1 member of staff, all of those overheads came to £100,000 per annum. (This does not include an income for the business owner yet).

Once you have this total figure, you will need to work out how many productive hours you will be able to achieve in that year.

So, you might look at how many working weeks, and how many days per week.

This might be 52 weeks – 6 weeks holiday = 46 working weeks x 5.5 working days = 253 working days a year.

Here you also have to add in the productivity of (any) staff employed, as well as yourself.

So if you had a member of staff working 8 hours a day, he or she would probably be productive (actually framing work for customers) for about 6 hours a day, whereas I would be surprised if you, as the owner of the business could be productive for more than 5 hours, unless you are working much more than you should.

‘Un-productive’ work is absolutely necessary – and includes, serving customers, cleaning up, ordering stock, keeping records, mending or maintaining equipment, advertising campaigns etc etc etc etc. There is nothing wrong with it, and it needs doing. But for the purposes of working out an hourly rate it is important to be honest with yourself – I personally recon I can do 5 hours absolutely focussed framing work in a 9 hour working day.

So, let’s say you had yourself, and 1 full-time employee;

253 x 6 hours for employee = 1518
253 x 5 hours for owner = 1265
Total productive hours per annum = 2783

Now, let us assume that you have enough work to keep you busy for all of your productive hours (if not – you MUST be realistic and reduce staff hours – DO NOT let them become less productive).

For each hour of framing, (based on the figures above £100,000 costs / 2783 productive hours) you need to be charging £35.93 per hour (let’s call it £36) just to cover your overheads.

Resources
You haven’t paid yourself yet!
Here you need to decide what you are worth . . . . . again, a big pitfall for many business owners.

In this example above, I am going to suggest that someone running a retail outlet 6 days a week, and employing a member of staff, has got to be worth a minimum of £40,000 per annum – but insert what you feel you are worth.

To earn £40,000, the business must charge (40k/2783= 14.40) another £14.40 per hour.

So our hourly rate is £36 + £14.40 = £50.40


PRICING
So here we have it. The price charged should be.

Materials + Wastage (inc carriage) + HOURLY RATE multiplied by HOURS TAKEN + VAT if applicable = PRICE

So using the above example, a framing job that takes 1.5 hours to complete would be charged out at

Materials and wastage (say) £25-50
Hourly rate (14.40 + 36) £50.40 x 1.5 £75.60
TOTAL COST £101.10 + VAT

So folks, what do you think of that method?
"You know, there's a right and wrong way to do everything!"
Oliver Hardy.
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Tudor Rose
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Re: Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by Tudor Rose »

Hi Kirsty

Welcome to the Forum and to what is a great industry. It is certainly one where people are happy to share knowledge and advice.

I would recommend getting some training and reading as much as you can. A really useful workshop reference tool is the GCF Study Guide. Even if you don't want to take the exam, it is full of useful information and well worth getting.

https://www.fineart.co.uk/shop/Default. ... tegory=134

Best of luck with your new venture!
Jo Palmer GCF(APF) Adv
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Gesso&Bole
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Re: Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by Gesso&Bole »

David McCormack wrote: Mon 28 Jun, 2021 11:43 am Welcome to the forum :D

The best way to get help is to ask specific questions about equipment and mounting techniques etc., but if you want some help with pricing have a read through this from Gesso&Bole:
Gosh that's a long time ago that I wrote that. The only thing I would add on pricing is that pricing software has improved massively in recent years, and I would definitely get on board with some software, as this will help you stay on the straight and narrow. Obviously there's Estlite, or also look at framiac or i-Framer.

As to learning about framing, there is a HUGE amount of information on this forum, but I would suggest that you get some face to face training. Don't think of it as an expense, because if you take on too much work before you know what you are doing, you will never build your business.

Obviously I'd be delighted to offer you some training, but you might find other options closer to home.

Good luck, and welcome to the wonderful world of framing

Jim
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Re: Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by Rainbow »

Welcome to the forum :)

Have you thought about what you're going to do to promote your business to get a steady stream of ongoing customers. Some of the methods that have worked for me are (not in any particular order):
- web site
- leaflets
- customer recommendations
- pavement swing sign
- advertising in parish magazines

I gave social media a fair trial when I first started but I didn't find it cost-effective in terms of time spent vs reward. You may find differently though.

Also, have you decided what your USP is going to be?

Good luck with your new business!
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Re: Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by Justintime »

Hi Kirsty,
That sounds like a really good start! Especially the working from a home space, I did the same thing 5 years ago.
I can highly recommend some training. Framers Equipment in Northampton do various courses, but this will take time to get on a few of theirs. You could jump straight in and contact Lyn Hall at Fringe Arts/The Art of Framing Training School in Farnham Surrey. Lyn is a multi qualified advanced framer, top of her game and an excellent teacher. I did my GCF preparation training with her (that's me in the Adidas T shirt!)
https://www.fringearts.co.uk/about-training/
There are various pricing softwares out there, after trying a few, I can recommend FrameR by framaic. It's a game changer once you get your head around it. It'll help you get on your feet. It sounds like you understand the importance of networking and word of mouth so that a massive tick off the list.
I found it an extremely steep learning curve for the first few years and a real struggle month by month to make it pay. But it did happen and now is less about volume of work coming in and more about quality and price point of jobs. The software has helped make sure that I'm not "leaving money on the table", that I'm charging for time and materials.
What I discovered was that if customers are asked to pay 100% upfront they collect quite soon. If not they don't. If like me you start with minimal cash flow, have supplier bills to pay monthly, but customers take a month after job completion to pay and collect, things can get stressful...
A £20 Square terminal and a mobile phone for payments was a very good early investment!
I'm happy to chat more, if you want another perspective. Sounds like you already have someone to bounce off, which is great!
Good luck!
Justin
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Re: Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi Kirsty and welcome to the forum,

With you based in Somerset and me based in Devon, we are almost nieghbours. I'm getting ready the re-open in smaller premises from where I used to be and at some point I will need to find a home for some surplus mouldings. They will be free to a good home and they are not rubbish, I've already disposed of the rubbish. This hopefully will be some helpful start up stock for practicing on and may even make some useful and saleable frames.

Best wishes for a sucessful future business,
Mark.
Mark Lacey

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― Geoffrey Chaucer
Miss Eclipse
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Re: Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by Miss Eclipse »

Thank you all so much for the replies so far :D

I have spent a few days with the aforementioned forum member who kindly taught me plenty. As it was one on one, I probably learnt as much as was needed and he felt that was enough to get me up and running (as he has 35 years experience and a successful business in a northern city I could not disagree!)

Mark, yes thank you for the offer of mouldings. I think I am about an hour from you? But was going to get in touch as I wondered if I should come down and visit you anyway?

I looked at pricing apps but I would be using an iPhone or iPad and I don’t think the one suggested is able to be used on them? So any iPad friendly suggestions would be appreciated.

I have ordered a sign to hang on my gate visible both sides for passing traffic...have a nephew who works in design in London so really pleased with it. Will also have same sign on door and use logo on stationery and labels. Advertising I am pretty clued up about and hopefully can call in favours with local newspapers I already send copy to for my pt journo work and send a press release for free publicity :D And yes obviously parish magazines are on the list too.

I have bought a book by Annabelle Ruston about setting up a framing business so I am wading through that. I think it’s a bit dated in parts but there are some useful tips.

Trying to get my head round the figures (I can be the original blonde at times... :lol: ) and working them out for pricing is proving a problem. I presume I have to factor in start up costs? I have no rent fortunately but I have still shelled out for equipment, studio refurbishment and some stock. That’s another thing. How much stock should I carry! Or is that a the same as asking how long is a piece of string?
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Re: Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by Gesso&Bole »

i-Framer is web based so will work on an i-Pad
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Re: Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by Not your average framer »

Since you are asking "how much stock should I carry". Initially it should not be to much, but It will be good to get some moulding samples to make some display chevrons. Choose mouldings which like stunning, but also have good potential for profit. The margin which you are able to add on to a moulding will vary according to it's original cost to you, your creativity in how you use it and what people will pay for it. Pricing mouldings for a fixed mark up across the board makes no sense. If a moulding has scope for a bit more mark up, why not?

Don't even think about beating your competitors prices, that's not how it works! My competitors don't even know how I do the things which I do. Also as I produce mainly hand finished, or stacked moulding frames,my competitor can not obtain anything "off the shelf" to match what I do. Putting it bluntly, I am a cripple and I don't want to compete with able bodied framers on a level playing field, so I play the game my ways, not theirs! I am an ex-design engneer and I understand how to think "out of the box".

If you are a small business, competing against bigger businesses, who has more buying power and access to bigger discount deals can be tough! So you can't beat them at their own game, but there is still the potential to develop your own niche in the market doing things that are more specialised. This is what I do and done well it can be a big advantage. This does not mean that you will need to learn to be a hand finishing framers, but nstead you can out do the competition particularly in the area of creative framing.

You will find your own way of doing things in time, this is what we all do anyway, even if we are not awere of it. If you've got a good eye for design, presentation and porportions, this may be a good start for developing your own style and techniques.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
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Re: Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by prospero »

Welcome Kirsty. :D
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Re: Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by Justintime »

The only reason that I can see to hold stock, in my business, is to save on delivery charges.
Wessex only deliver to me every 2 weeks, so my turnaround is usually at least 2 weeks. Guessing what are going to be your staple mouldings is very hard, but customers can only choose between the samples that you show them. Mountboard is a bit easier, whites and creams are a daily staple and colours come and go as needed. I still only carry about 50 sheets at any time. Whoever you go with for glass, be sure to order some free display boxes that show off the glass. Truvue samples are available foc from Larson Juhl website as are samples of all of their mountboards as I'm sure you're aware.
The hardest thing for me was believing that customers would actually pay for things like specialist glass. I now sell as much or more of UV70 than float glass.
I found the Annabelle Rushton Conservation Framing book really useful, but as Jo has said, the Fine Art Trade Guild Study Guide will give you everything you need to work to industry standard practices. I can also highly recommend "The Guidelines to Great Frame Design" by Greg Perkins and joining groups on facebook, framers only, underpinner, framing academy, where you will find Greg is an active member sharing his insights into design.
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Re: Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi kirsty,

Are you in a big town / city, or is it a more rural location? Where you are will sometimes determine what your possible market may be like! It's also significant, wether you are located in a well off area, or a less affluent area. The reality is that wherever you are you will need to cater a bit for all markets to some degree, but if there is something particularly helpful to tap in to locally, this may be helpful to you. I recommend that you are careful checking out the quality of what mouldngs you will be displaying samples of. I'm not making any recommendations based on price, but the quality of the materials which you need to work will. Extra work caused by needing to put things right, not only can cost you money, but waste often limited and valuable time.

There a lot of planning and knowing how to help things to run smoothly in this business and most of us have our ways of doing things that work well for us. You too will end up running things your way. I very much work to a system and like to know in advance how to handle particular sorts of jobs. Some framers don't like to carry much stock, while others like to operate from a selected "on hand stock". There are particular opinions about which approach is best, but you will work out what works for you as you go along. Lots of the stock, which I originally bought for my shop when starting up, was not the best choices, so at first it's good to be a little restrained in spending money on stock.

It is a fact that you will need some stock when starting out, but it's prbably helpful to look at the gaps in your existing range of stock which you already have and try to work out what is worth buying and what is not. Just because something is missing from your initial stock range, does not mean that you will ever use it. Most of us buy a bit of what we need and sometimes we will try something which we like. I don't display all that many samples, it's not a big thing for me, others display as many samples as they can fnd room for. Does it make much difference which method we choose? I don't know! After a while, many of us just tend to be "playing it by ear" as we go along and this works for a good many of us.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Miss Eclipse
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Re: Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by Miss Eclipse »

Again..thank you for the replies. They are really appreciated :) And very much giving me more to think about and act on.

I was recommended to use Centrado as a supplier but I guess everyone has their recommendations. So far I do have a fair bit of stock from the person I bought the Morso, underpinner etc. from. But no glass. Presume if I get the Centrado rep to drop in, then I can discuss (and try not to get sucked into buying too much!)
Miss Eclipse
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Re: Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by Miss Eclipse »

Not your average framer wrote: Tue 29 Jun, 2021 1:47 pm Hi kirsty,

Are you in a big town / city, or is it a more rural location? Where you are will sometimes determine what your possible market may be like! It's also significant, wether you are located in a well off area, or a less affluent area. The reality is that wherever you are you will need to cater a bit for all markets to some degree, but if there is something particularly helpful to tap in to locally, this may be helpful to you. I recommend that you are careful checking out the quality of what mouldngs you will be displaying samples of. I'm not making any recommendations based on price, but the quality of the materials which you need to work will. Extra work caused by needing to put things right, not only can cost you money, but waste often limited and valuable time.

There a lot of planning and knowing how to help things to run smoothly in this business and most of us have our ways of doing things that work well for us. You too will end up running things your way. I very much work to a system and like to know in advance how to handle particular sorts of jobs. Some framers don't like to carry much stock, while others like to operate from a selected "on hand stock". There are particular opinions about which approach is best, but you will work out what works for you as you go along. Lots of the stock, which I originally bought for my shop when starting up, was not the best choices, so at first it's good to be a little restrained in spending money on stock.

It is a fact that you will need some stock when starting out, but it's prbably helpful to look at the gaps in your existing range of stock which you already have and try to work out what is worth buying and what is not. Just because something is missing from your initial stock range, does not mean that you will ever use it. Most of us buy a bit of what we need and sometimes we will try something which we like. I don't display all that many samples, it's not a big thing for me, others display as many samples as they can fnd room for. Does it make much difference which method we choose? I don't know! After a while, many of us just tend to be "playing it by ear" as we go along and this works for a good many of us.
I am a mile from a small town in Somerset. On a fairly busy B road which goes ultimately to Minehead and the coast. So a fair bit of passing traffic. I do have a nice little private car park opposite the property too which will be useful.
And I have bought the equipment rather than the business from the previous picture framer in the town so there is a “vacancy” so to speak!
Not your average framer
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Re: Another newbie...think rabbit in headlights!

Post by Not your average framer »

Passing traffic which is not necessarily connected to the local area, is often just passing traffic and It often just paases and it's gone. I'm in a small town and on a B road. Road traffic used to be a bigger contribution to business turn over than it is now. Don't worry, I'm not trying to put you off. Beneficial foot fall and customers are not necessarily a product of passing road traffic. I'm not on a part of the main road network to anywhere significant, but people make targetted trips to visit my shop. Lots of them come from a long way away! How do they decide to come looking for me? I don't have the slightest idea! It really does not matter!

Do a good job and people will mention you on social media, the internet and who knows what. It's just how things work these days. I don't have a website, or a blog and I don't do any advertising. I have found that most paid advertising is a waste of money. Happy customers will be you're advertising. It's all about word of mouth and this is what really works. It takes a little time to work, but once it gets going, it just does not stop! I'm know by many of my customers as an old school, old fashioned framer, which is largely what I am. How dd I find out that is what I am? It's what my customers tell me that I am. A customer from up by Hay Tor on Dartmoor, referred to me as "Not your average framer" and this is how I got my forum name.

I am part of a small town and part of the local community. Local communities look after their own and they've certainly looked after me! I often go the extra mile for my customers, it's what you do when the situation calls for it! It may well happen like that for you. Lots of good things have happened to me, which were just never planned. I was brought up to believe that it never does you any harm to show kindness to others and people will get to notice that too! My prices are both reasonable and fair. To be able to make a honest and honourable living is all I ask. I don't have big ambitions, or plans, but nice things have happened to me when I've faced life's difficulties.

I've had one heart attack, a TIA and a stroke and people have been so kind to me and kept me busy when it was make, or break after the heart attack and the stroke. Do your best and look after your custoers and friends and they will look after you. I know this because people have been so kind to me.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
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