Hello from Newby. Underpinner advise needed please.

[Amrit]

Hi all, I've finally registered on this forum. I've found that framing has lured me away from painting by it's charm.
My equipment:
1. Orteguil 80mm hand mitre guillotine. This is an excellent piece of kit as it is small and cheap and accurate.
2. Charnwood pfk04 vnailer. This is well built and excellent value however sadly just not up to the job. Nearly every frame I have vnailed comes out not perfect, with gaps.

So I'm looking for a decent underpinner. Budget is about the £400 mark.
I've looked at the charnwood M3, but apparently this does not do hardwood, so not a futureproof option, knowing my pain with oak in the past.
Lions told me about the Inmes, which apparently is their own brand which they released after having an issue with Cassesse. I was told by Lion the Inmes does use the same wedge, same hammer and cable as the Cassesse. This comes in at around £430 inc VAT.
Cassesse do a CS59 which I've not heard many people talk of. This is £542 and near budget from http://www.framersequipment.co.uk/casse ... ipment.htm. Is this any good?
The Cassesse CS79 seems a good option and requires no air compressor. I haven't seen very many of these on ebay or second hand. At nearly £700 this is way over my budget unfortunately.
There is a cs89 on ebay at the moment, opening price of £500, however buying a compressor on top of this will make things quite expensive for me.

Any suggestions?

Any other recommendations? Or am I better off waiting to buy a

[IFGL]

I have a charnwood M4 for sale with at least 6 boxs of v nails it was bought in April while my alpha was being repaired .£450 including vat and demo I also have alpha 1m for sale for 300 both are good machines.



Oh yeah, and welcome to the forum.

[Amrit]

Thanks for responding. if u put ur sales hat aside which product would u go for? I've just seen a Morso underpinner on eBay sell for £125 (item no 130735185944).

The thing that concerns me is that the reviews of Charnwood just aren't that great and I'm afraid they aren't built to last, nor do they hold their value as much as the cassese. Crickey, if an £1100 Morso underpinner is going for £100 then what hope is there for lesser brands?

Appreciate the offer though. I just want to do more research before making a decision.

Edit update: the more I think of the m4 it the more I am tempted. the only thing for me would be last ability. Does it use the same wedges as that on the cassese?

I have a charnwood M4 for sale with at least 6 boxs of v nails it was bought in April while my alpha was being repaired .£450 including vat and demo I also have alpha 1m for sale for 300 both are good machines.



Oh yeah, and welcome to the forum.

[GeoSpectrum]

I use an M3 which is proving to be good value for money. The hardest wood I use is ash, so unless you are planning on using a lot of oak or wenge then the M3 might be ok. If you can get the M4 for that price (or a bit less?) then I would go for that.

[IFGL]

Cassese without a doubt are a great underpinner , although any machine without a magnetic head really annoys me , I do believe you can buy a conversion kit for the cassese. the alpha comes with it as standard, and while I used the m4 I modified it to work with the alpha head . Although I have now put it back to how it was originally.

Cassese have a nice system for loading V nails, t

hey come in colour coordinated cartridges.
Alpha you have to use an alen key to change a block above the wedge

The charnwood machine is just a twist lever at the side. uses universal wedges

And I have no idea about the morso underpinner.

[Amrit]

Hi ifgl, I messaged u.

[Not your average framer]

Hi Amrit,

If you can't afford to buy new pro equipment, then the next best thing is to buy secondhand pro equipment and there's plenty of good secondhand pro equipment about. Don't be afraid to ask on the forum about any equipment you are thinking about buying before you part with your hard earn't cash.

Very often you can get a great deal on older equipment. I've recommended several people who can't afford what they really wanted when first starting out, to look for a secondhand manual Pistorius. They are built like tanks, almost unbreakable, they use universal wedges and usually they don't cost much to buy.

Some spare parts are still around and you will have to phone around, but I doubt if you will need any. The company has gone, but if it already works and the hammer is good, then it will probably last for years. Ask someone on the who uses one! They will soon confirm what I say.

You can always put the money that you save towards buying what you really wanted when you've had time to get the rest of the cash together. Then if you want to you can ebay the Pistorius and get you money back.

There are plenty of other good underpinners around as well.

[IFGL]

My dad has a pistorious , its 20 years old never had a break down and has joined well over 100K frames , the only criticism I would have is it isn't great for hardwoods and is a bit fiddley to change the wedges.

Over all a great machine .

[Amrit]

Thanks Mark and ifgl, did see a pistorious on eBay a few weeks back but didn't have the budget I have now.
So I'm deciding between ifgl's m4, and a new inmes from lion. The lion inmes turns out cheaper due to the distance I'll have to collect the m4 from. The inmes also is a lion own brand based on the cassese. It takes the same hammer, cable and wedges that cassese use. It does seem a reliable machine.

Hi Amrit,

If you can't afford to buy new pro equipment, then the next best thing is to buy secondhand pro equipment and there's plenty of good secondhand pro equipment about. Don't be afraid to ask on the forum about any equipment you are thinking about buying before you part with your hard earn't cash.

Very often you can get a great deal on older equipment. I've recommended several people who can't afford what they really wanted when first starting out, to look for a secondhand manual Pistorius. They are built like tanks, almost unbreakable, they use universal wedges and usually they don't cost much to buy.

Some spare parts are still around and you will have to phone around, but I doubt if you will need any. The company has gone, but if it already works and the hammer is good, then it will probably last for years. Ask someone on the who uses one! They will soon confirm what I say.

You can always put the money that you save towards buying what you really wanted when you've had time to get the rest of the cash together. Then if you want to you can ebay the Pistorius and get you money back.

There are plenty of other good underpinners around as well.

[GeoSpectrum]

Amrit,

If you also need a Keencut Gold and are willing to wait I should have one available at the end of August pending the arrival of my new Gunnar.

[Amrit]

Thanks Geospectrum, I was starting to look at mount cutters. Is it 48" and can you pm an expected price? I'm based in West London so it depends on logistics.

Amrit

Amrit,

If you also need a Keencut Gold and are willing to wait I should have one available at the end of August pending the arrival of my new Gunnar.

[Gillthepainter]

Good morning to you, Amrit. How are you keeping.
That's such a shame your vnailer isn't coping well with the mitre pinning. In the meantime, until you source an underpinner, are you able to remove that diamond plate that holds the mitred mouldings?

I find clamps like that don't have the ooomph to hold mitre joins together tight enough.
I've even bought 4 individual corner clamps, but it cannot match a framing strap that hold the corners in a vice-like "pull" whilst you glue and drive in the vnails. (This is my experience anyway).

Also.
Are you able to talk to a friendly framer local to you, with whom you can spend an hour? You'll learn heaps watching him/her cut, paint and assemble.
I haven't met an unapproachable one yet. You can see that underpinner at work which will help your choice.

Of course you may have already seen it in action, and can forget everything I'm saying.

[cuthbert]

Very pleased to hear you're happy with the Orteguil 80mm Amrit, as I'm thinking of buying one for myself - did you buy new or second hand? There's one on ebay currently that I have been looking at, which is getting quite a few bids.

[Amrit]

Hi guys, sorry I forgot I was on this and just saw this now. As an update I have managed to get hold of a Morso, a cs88 and a mount cutter. I still have my orteguil. It is a great machine but I can't see myself needing it much longer. I may put it up or sale. I have spare blades also which I'm happy to sell at cost.

Yes, go for the eBay orteguil. If u don't get that then mine is available as a backup. I'm not formally advertising it just yet.

[Not your average framer]

Hi Amrit,

You won't go far wrong with a Morso and a CS-88. It looks like you are ready to really go for it. Which mountcutter did you get?

[Amrit]

Thanks Mark. I bought a Signature Cathers 48" mountcutter. It all came as a package from a retiree who used to frame his own prints. Not sure if he actually sold much but he's kept the equipment in great shape.

[prospero]

The old Euro (Charnwood used the same mechanism) manual pinners sometimes come up for sale. The one problem is spares.
I bought the basic 8000 series Euro when I started off (about £180 ) and I'm still using it. Only had to replace the mainspring and the hammer spring. The latter one is pretty generic - I scrounged it and cut a bit off to fit. If you strip it down and give all the moving parts a clean now and then, it will keep going for years.

They are so simple that they are easy to maintain and not much to go wrong. Not the machine of choice for high volume framing, but does a good job. Uses Uni wedges.

[ambeaton12]

I have a Euro 8000 Butterfly Underpinner for sale at £200 which would suit your needs.
I agree with Prospero - it is simple to use and easy to maintain,
as it can be stripped down and cleaned using a couple of allen keys.

[A3DFramer]

Hi Amrit, I still have an Oteguel slightly smaller than yours, 50mm, the main specialty of my framing operation was glass cases, 30 yrs ago we made an extended bed for it, similar to the marked extensions that are available in the last few years. All the light angle trims for capping the edges of the cases, both picture frame cases and free standing were cut on this machine. Also small slips similar to slips and inserts. The great thing about the two machines were their position in the workshop, the Morso was in the dirtier end where as the Orteguil was more accessible from the clean end.