Chop service and underpinner

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Richard Photofusion
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Chop service and underpinner

Post by Richard Photofusion »

I think I may be in the market for an underpinner. Currently print and mount to a range of substrates, and have a client (colleague) who has rather a large show coming up, and is suffering from sticker shock for the framing. I'm toying with the idea of getting a second hand CS8X, and using chop service from Lion or Wessex (other options also considered), as I get bits from them on a regular basis.

Show is likely to be tray framed, and I'll be doing the printing and mounting to aluminium. I've got the space for an underpinner, as well as the ususal benches, Steeltrak (should I get bored, and play with glass), as well as an oil free 20litre Bambi compressor (wish it was silent...).

Would I be wrong to imagine that cut mouldings would be a relatively straight forward proposition to join - am I missing anything about the process that should raise flags?

A lot of the shows I produces are print, laminate, mount and subframe - sticking four bits of wood around the edge wouldn't cost much more than bonding a subframe, and would open up new lines of madness.

Worst case scenario, if I get a reasonable underpinner second hand, then I can sell on for not too much of a loss _OR_ I get caught by the bug, and need a morso, table saw, thcknesser, spray booth, separate filthy room, away from my dust free production space, and, and, and.
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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

Chop service is not that crazy. Framers who operate that way don't have to keep large quantities of moulding stock, can make better use of limited workshop stock and space, Don't have to keep getting Morso blade sharpened and have less waste to pay for the disposal off. It you are good at organising things just right you can, maintain a fast turn around between taking the framing order and having the order completed for collection, under take more work making best use of the size of your workshop and workforce.

It's nothing new, engineering manufacturers have been outsourcing for a very long time. It enables assembly oriented businesses to grow without any significant up front investment, or increased workshop space and gives you plenty of flexibility in how you grow your busines, or adjust to peaks and troughs in demand for your business. If you are growing your business, with the intention of selling it, then your accounts will show a better ratio of turnover to overheads.

What's not to like about it?
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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by poliopete »

On this occasion I concur with Marks every word :D

In the past Mark has also said "buy cheap buy twice" so consider that when purchasing your underpinner. As regards Wessex and a chop service I was informed at their last Road show they are not going to continue that :(

Best of luck whatever you decide.

Peter.
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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

If you are already too busy and someone wants an urgent job it might be possible to do the job on chop and by doing so reduce some of the extra pressure. It is quite easy to add the extra cost of chop and the carriage as being a necessary way of fitting in their rush job at short notice.
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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by Justintime »

"...am I missing anything about the process that should raise flags?"
Perhaps consider the size of try frame mouldings that you would like to underpin.
If the tall edge width is 10mm or more you should be fine, if its an 8mm or less then I use a dovetail router on the tall back and underpin the shallow inside.
Softwoods are relatively easy to get the hang of in my experience, but hardwoods can be a nightmare, again I join all hardwoods with a Hoffmann (bearing in mind I use a foot operated underpinner, others using a pneumatic will be able to expand on this I'm sure).
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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

There's always going to be pros and cons. Below a certain price per foot, or price per metre, supplying moulding on chop will probably make no sense to your supplier and if they had charge extra on cheaper mouldings the price they would have to charge for supplying that moulding on chop would make no sense to you. If it's an expensive moulding and any mistake made when you do the cutting, that's your loss. If you got it on chop and there was a mistake and the dimensions that you supplied were correct, it's your suppliers loss. I don't buy mouldings on chop, because it suits the way that I work. I have various stacked moulding combinations that often utilise cost effective pine mouldings and I like to be the guy who is picking which bits of moulding I will use.

If I can avoid hand finishing over knots, I can save myself time and money, therefore I want to choose how I want to cut the bits I need out of the lengths of moulding and that's why I don't do chop. Also the left over off cuts can be used to make ready made frames, cut up on the bandsaw to make spacers, fillets, or to make a frame for some who wants a bit of a bargain. Left overs have already been paid for from the sale of the original frame, it is a mistake to think otherwise, because you often have no chance to make any futher money out of your off cuts and they may end up in the dumpster anyway.

We are all going to decide whether it makes sense to order on chop, or buy moulding by length according to what makes sense to each of us as individuals and we won't all come to the same decision in every case. You don't have to buy mouldings on chop all the time, there may be weeks when you don't buy anything whatsoever on chop, the beauty of this option is that you are calling the shots and you can switch to, or away from chop as you like. The world is your lobster, to quote Arthur Daily.
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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by Justintime »

"... sticking four bits of wood around the edge... "
I guess that's all we really do! :lol:
:roll:
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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

I think that it's a lot more than just that. What about flawless presentation, everything fitting together accurately and craftmamship that's made to last? If it was just fitting four bits of wood together, everybody would be doing it for them selves and us framers would be out of a job.
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Richard Photofusion
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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by Richard Photofusion »

Thank you all for taking the time to reply. I'm looking to keep this fairly simple - a lot of the time I have more work on my hands than I know how to make hours in the week for, but this strikes me as being a logical extension to current services, and with suitable planning, shouldn't dramatically add to the overall work load.

I think I'll hold off on the mucky hoffmann type toys for the time being, but will bare in mind the not too hard wood, 10mm info. Bandsaws etc would be very nice to have, but not near my printers, scanners, laminator, vinyl cutter etc..

Buy cheap and twice - I think the CS88 / CS89 should be reasonable?

And outsourcing elements of production - where I've got an overall QC on the output suits me just fine.

Please excuse the flippancy - my alter ego is the_humble_print_monkey - I press print, and then stick stuff down with (posh) doublesided sticky tape, before sending off to art galleries.
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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by Justintime »

Buy cheap and twice is a terrible idea...
I've lost track of who's been serious and who's being sarcastic now...cs88 is a brilliant machine btw
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Richard Photofusion
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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by Richard Photofusion »

I always buy the right tool for the job, so I’m on the active search for a cs88/9.

Flippancy, I can’t help, /s, I try to avoid outside poisontics (and this is not the place for that)
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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by poliopete »

It's good to read you have "more work on my hands than I know how to make hours in the week for" :D

When I found myself in this situation, many many years ago, I invested in a pneumatic Cassese. These machines were new to the market then and very expensive. At the time it was a difficult decision to make, as it turned out it was the correct thing to do and I never looked back.

Since coming out of retirement and running a much smaller operation I have purchased a cs89 and compressor. For most of the time this pneumatic underpinner is under used but during busy times it's worth every penny saving energy and irreplaceable time.

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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by Justintime »

Ebay "underpinners", couple of cassese at around £700 and a gielle ex demo that needs a service.
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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by prospero »

The thing with chop is you get what you ask for - up to a point.

Some choppers by default add bit to your supplied dimensions to allow for glass clearance. You might not want this so it's
important to specify DEAD measurements. So if you want 700mm you get 700mm.

Trouble is, you can't fine tune the lengths once cut and you may need to shave a smigeon off. Can't do this. :|
Measurements can be super-critical when dealing with tray frames. Particularly with stretched canvases.

Some mouldings are easier to join than others so It's also important to pick them carefully. :wink:
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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

It's easy to try a chop just the once and see how you like it and see what you think. Looking in some suppliers catalogues it looks like only certain mouldings are available on chop, so I assume that you will still want to be able to cut other mouldings yourself, even if the decide to do chop. Therefore it makes sense to have some means of doing this anyway. I does not have to be either, or.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by Not your average framer »

I use a CS-88....Brilliant machine and easy to maintain. I would recommend a CS-88 to anyone.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Richard Photofusion
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Re: Chop service and underpinner

Post by Richard Photofusion »

Again, thank you all for the responses, and sorry for the delay in saying so.

Client is having second thoughts, which nicely eases off the pressure on setting up an in house solution for now. I'm still interested in getting this set up - if I were slightly further north, then the idea of a CS88 and a fillet morso would be ideal - still don't want to chop wood - the space just isn't there, but being able to finely cut a spacer would open up more lines of thought.

All your suggestions and recomendations are filed, and greatly appreciated.
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