2nd Quality Moulding : How Much Should I Expect?

Discuss Picture Framing topics.

PLEASE USE THE HELP SECTION
WHEN SEEKING OR OFFERING HELP!
Post Reply
Foresty_Forest
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue 18 Aug, 2020 9:44 am
Location: Yorkshire
Organisation: Forest Arts
Interests: Painting and Art

2nd Quality Moulding : How Much Should I Expect?

Post by Foresty_Forest »

I've finished working through a recent order of oak moulding. There was a bit of 2nd quality moulding. How much 2nds is acceptable from the wholesaler? As it's wholesale am I expected to fill the occasional knot and crack? What about warped moulding?
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: 2nd Quality Moulding : How Much Should I Expect?

Post by Not your average framer »

I work with plenty of bare wood mouldings and to be honest expecting every last bit of a moulding to be perfect in every way, is not being all that realistic. Wood is a natural substance and it does it's own thing while it is growing and then it gets feed through various wood machining processes and what comes out the other end, might not always be exactly what you expected. I'm sorry to tell you this, but that is what you bought, wastage and all. Unfortunately You need to get used to it, because that's the way it's. I have a box for the bits that I can't you for the high quality and really perfect jobs and a lot of what go into this box will eventually get matched up and made into rustic frames. I am located in a small town on the edge of Dartmoor and selling rustic style oak frames is not only really easy to do, butit's reasonably profitable as well. As a result, I don't regard less than perfect bits of bare wood mouldings anything to get upset about. The damaged bits get attacked with a wire brush and get finished with a mucky looking wash and customers who live in old rustic cottages love them.

I also buy crazy amounts of bare wood pine mouldings, but I don't much like the knots, so I cut around the knots, when I can and the knots go in the waste bin. It does not bother me, knotty pine is not my thing and hand finishing to hide knots, for me is just wasting time, so apart from largely un-noticeable knots, most go straight in the waste bin. After cutting the usable, knot free lengths to the size that I need to make normal frames, I have to sort through the off cuts and make small ready made frames, if the off cuts are a usable size. If not they go into the waste bin. Wastage does not matter, if you have already build an adequate allowance for it into your prices. With pine, it is a noticeable fact that the quality of the pine used for certain mouldings is not always the same for each particular moulding. Using pine mouldings, where the quality of the pine used is not the best, just creates more work and fussing around trying to make it look of acceptable quality. I try to avoid pine mouldings where the quality is not the best, as it can directly affect your profitability.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
User avatar
prospero
Posts: 11492
Joined: Tue 05 Jun, 2007 4:16 pm
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: 2nd Quality Moulding : How Much Should I Expect?

Post by prospero »

A few knots/flaws here and there are expected. Even a bent length. You do tend to get an 'iffy' batch now and again where
there is more wastage than usual, but there again you can get a really good batch where the wastage is virtually zero.

In general, if you buy 100ft and use 70ft then that's more-or-less the wastage factor you should expect. It depends a lot on
the size of the frame. If say, you are doing a run of 4'x3' frames you are going to need 2 10ft lengths per frame even though
only 14ft ends up in the frame. On small frames you are going to use less moulding. :wink: But on the larger frames you have
more scope for cutting around flaws.
Watch Out. There's A Humphrey About
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: 2nd Quality Moulding : How Much Should I Expect?

Post by Not your average framer »

I work on a wastage factor of 40 percent. There are times when that figure is a bit over the top, but it is probably better to allow too much for wastage that not enough. I also don't always get the maximum out of every length of such mouldings as I like much of my waste moulding to either be in lengths that are likely to be usable, or too small to matter. For me, having lots of waste bits which are almost big enough to be ueable, but not quite seems pointless. If I am saving useful left overs in my off cuts box and can only make up three sides of a frame, from bits that are left overs and off cuts, I am wasting my time doing it. Quite often the left overs will make enough frames to pay for a large part of the original moulding costs, but making too many excessively small frames, is only producing items that are too difficult to sell and customers are expecting really small frames to be far to cheap to have been worth making in the first place.

Smaller frames tend to be more worthwhile, when you make them into box frames. I've no idea why, but small box frames sell a lot better than ordinary frames, of the same size. Casual customers often buy small box frames, just because they think that they will come in handy, for something at a later date. Box frames are even made into little presents for birthdays, or just gifts for customers to give to their friends, I think this is more common in small rural towns, that in larger towns and cities. Lots of people around my town make things up as hobbies and home made arts and crafts, so it can be a bit of a ready made market, waiting to be exploted. Picking the right price for things made up, out of bits and pieces is not always easy and it is quite important not to pack too much into the shop windws. Empty space in shop window is very important to create enough impact for the items, which you wish to display for sale.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
User avatar
Colin Macintyre
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon 03 Jan, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: West Dean, Wiltshire
Organisation: cmpf.co.uk
Interests: Picture Framing
Location: Salisbury, Romsey
Contact:

Re: 2nd Quality Moulding : How Much Should I Expect?

Post by Colin Macintyre »

One issue I find with oak in particular is the patters caused by the medullary rays. I know in oak furniture and panelling these patterns are often regarded as the best cuts, but on a thin oak moulding I can find them a visual distraction, that appear as blemishes. Unfortunately, because they are revealed by an angle of cut in the milling process, it tends to be the whole length affected. Does anyone else have thoughts on this, and perhaps ideas for using such lengths? Or am I being too fussy? Perhaps, like many others, I have been brainwashed by seeing too many perfect oak effect coatings, into thinking unevenness in the grain is unacceptable.
oak2.jpg
oak1.jpg
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: 2nd Quality Moulding : How Much Should I Expect?

Post by Not your average framer »

Oak is not the most consistent grain and there's not a lot that you can do about that, but it's often still more consistent at times than ash. The grain in ash can be difficult to match up four pieces at times even from the same length of moulding. I'm not a great fan of ash and as a result, I use oak much more. Invariably I don't like too buy any less that 100 ft of oakat any one time as I am looking to get the best match for all four lengths of moulding for one frame. I find it much easier to match the grain with oak mouldings, but I do encounter colour variations and there are times when having the extra mouling lengths enable me to do a bit of mixing and matching to get the best match. Oak is my best selling hard wood moulding, but there are times when I have to fill the odd defect and sand the moulding smooth, while allowing the saw dust to get sanded into the PVA. It very often solves the problem and avoids unnecessary wastage problems, but it is a fact that maintaining both good quality and profitability can require more work than you had expected.

There are times when the quality of the oak is somewhat problematic and there are bits that have really noticeable quality issues and I have to make use of such bits, from time to time and make rustic oak frames to try and sell by displaying them in my shop windows. As you can probably imagine rustic style frames, still need some degree of consistency between the four bits of moulding which make up the frame. I do this by dragging the faces of such mouldings in a reverse direction across the blade on my band saw. After making the frames and adding a slightly dull and grotty wash to the surface and wiping off the surface a little, it's surprising how good they look. Fortunately for me, I am surounded by really old cottages, old farm houses and barn conversions, so stuff like this is quite popular and what is often otherwise worthless wastage is still capable of attracting enthusiastic customers. Rural Devon tends to be a difficult place to be, if you are a picture framer and the sales levels are not always consistent throughout the different months of the years, so rustic style frames can be really helpful.

Try to look upon not quite perfect bits of moulding as potentially much more useful, than you might otherwise think. I cut up bits of waste moulding to make spacers, slips and even odd bits which become parts of stacked moulding frames. A small bench top band saw and a bench top belt sander enable you to do things like this in so little time. A band saw is one of the quickest woodwork power tools that there is! Set up time is minimal and the time taken to make superbly looking bits and pieces is almost nothing. How much profit is sitting in your waste bin? It may be quite a lot more than you think! Also if you repair and refurbish old frames (which I do), old style slips are very different dimensions and proportions to what is available in these days, but with a band saw and a bench top belt sander I can make passable copies of most things. For me, much of my scrap and waste wood has the potential to become something, both saleable and profitable. I think I may not be the only one, who is considering the potential posibilties in these difficult days.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
User avatar
Colin Macintyre
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon 03 Jan, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: West Dean, Wiltshire
Organisation: cmpf.co.uk
Interests: Picture Framing
Location: Salisbury, Romsey
Contact:

Re: 2nd Quality Moulding : How Much Should I Expect?

Post by Colin Macintyre »

Thanks Mark, A few good tips there. I am also in a rustic rural area. I have a band saw so I will try:
"dragging the faces of such mouldings in a reverse direction across the blade on my band saw."
What could possibly go wrong? :giggle:
vintage frames
Posts: 1349
Joined: Tue 12 Jun, 2012 6:05 pm
Location: West Wales
Organisation: https://www.dermotmcardle.co.uk/
Interests: Making picture frames
Contact:

Re: 2nd Quality Moulding : How Much Should I Expect?

Post by vintage frames »

That's interesting that you find the medullary ray pattern a distraction on oak mouldings. I suppose if you prefer a plainer bleached oak effect, then the appearance of these marks can be a bit irritating. One way around it is to sand the surface down a bit more. As the oak ages, the medullary pattern tends to show up more in relief, so re-sanding the surface helps diminish their prominence.
This of course is all the result of the moulding mills slicing up the oak logs so as to get the maximum amount of useable wood against cost. As the saws slice through the logs they eventually expose a plane with all the medullary rays showing, and these are mixed in with the rest of the wood towards the milling process. The end result is that a batch of mouldings will have a random selection of lengths showing the medullary pattern.
However - in fine cabinet making and best quality frame mouldings, the medullary pattern is known as "figuring" and is obtained by the more expensive "quarter-sawing" the oak. Hence the name Quarter Sawn Oak. ( There's even a company called Quarter Sawn Oak! )
With quarter sawn oak, the wood grain is much tighter and shows a finer flecking pattern than with the more open long-grain effect of a plain oak section.
Figured oak was much treasured in Victorian times and can be seen stained and waxed in early oak print frames. The Pre-Raphaelites were especially keen on gilding the oak and always used quarter-sawn sections for their frames.
If you try gilding onto a "straight-cut",open grain section of oak, then the effect is quite brash and horrible, (and how often have I seen this in practice). Laying the gold onto a quarter sawn section, however gives a much more pleasing effect with the finer closed grain and the subtle shading pattern of the medullary rays. Have a look sometime at the flat sections on Watts frames, for instance.
Maybe get to like your medullary rays and the character they can provide to a picture-frame.
Affordable Gilding Course for Professional Framers-https://www.dermotmcardle.co.uk/
https://www.instagram.com/dermotmcardle/
User avatar
Colin Macintyre
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon 03 Jan, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: West Dean, Wiltshire
Organisation: cmpf.co.uk
Interests: Picture Framing
Location: Salisbury, Romsey
Contact:

Re: 2nd Quality Moulding : How Much Should I Expect?

Post by Colin Macintyre »

Thanks for the knowledgeable explanation of the cause, and ideas for using "figured" oak. I have never discarded any oak due to this patterning, just that I find it a bit unsightly on a narrow frame sometimes. Perhaps I will use it more often, and if the customers are happy then that is all that matters.
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: 2nd Quality Moulding : How Much Should I Expect?

Post by Not your average framer »

I really like quarter sawn oak and when I recieve a delivery of oak, I make a point of looking throught the lengths of oak and seeing how many lengths of really nice looking oak is in that batch. There are often a few lengths of quarter sawm oak, but there are often other nice lookings lengths that are not necessarily quarter sawn, but still look really nice as well. I wonder if anyone remembers the lovely square profile pine moulding that were made by a company called Albor form Italy. These were almost totally knot free quarter sawn and obviously a selected grade of pine. The were finished in a lovely range of subtile pastel washed shades and every single length was totally dead straight. There weren't any twisted lengths at all and the machining was consistently perfect throughout each entire length and there weren't any noticeable deviations in the machining even at the very ends of each length.

Well, if you buy your mouldings in quantity for stock, as I do, you can often pick out the really nice looking lengths, many of which are often quarter sawn. As I guess you can imaging, some lengths are more suitable for painted finishes, rather than stained, or washed finishes, but some have that classic close straight grain that looks so good with a nice muted wash finish. I am not really at that keen on just straight forward stained pine, the pine does not absorb the stain very evenly and I think it looks really cheap and not really a quality looking job at all. As a consequence I like to apply a weak pale wash to the pine before staining it, the purpose is to block the more absorbent areas in the wood and prevent the pine from absorbing too much of the wood stain in these areas.

I let the wash soak in a bit and before it can dry I wipe away the excess with a paper kitchen towel and apply the stain immediately, as a result the wash saturated pine does not absorb the wood stain in the same way and you get a much more natural finish. This also gives a lot more scope for making the pine look like something of much better quality. Most of the pine mouldings, which I regularly use are relatively knot free, although not all, but the knot free ones, don't have those tell tale knots all over the place and with care these can be made to look like something else, other that bog standard pine. One of the easiest finishes to do in such cases is parrana pine, which is quite popular with many customers. Part of the secret is to have a pinkish wash and a pale golden pine, or pale oak stain. As you apply the stain, some of the pinkiness leaks out into the stain, but the stain must not be strong enough to hask this effect.

I like the polyvine acrylic wax finish stain varnishes and I mix the different shades and water them down at times to get whatever effect I am looking for. After a while and enough practice, you can accomplish all matter of rather different, but tasteful stained effects. Another useful effect is known as grain popping, but this is not a good effect from highlighting less than good looking grain, or figuring. However with a nice grain pattern is can look really interesting and something extra special. The secret is to apply one colour with an initial wash and to wipe and sand the wood back a little, before applying a second contrasting colour. This effect often looks good with a final gloss finish, but more that often, I prefer just to give it a wax finish.

I like to apply the wax with a brush and warm the wax with a hot air gun to set and level the wax, followed by a quick buff. It is perhaps just a personal thing, but I think that wax does not look as synthetic as many other finishes. It is a big thing with me about finishes looking both natural and really traditional. To me, too many modern finishes look much to cheap, artificial and not at all nice! I like to display various hand finished items in my shop windows, but I feel that a nice display can be spolit by just displaying something that is not quite good enough, so there is that question that I always ask, whether some things are right for displaying in the shop windows. My rule is that only the best goes in my shop windows and that there must be enough empty space within the windows to give everything in the windows it's proper impact.

I have hardly any factory finished mouldings in my shop, natural wood beats factory finished mouldings so much of the time. It a real big thing in my shop and maybe it can have as much potential for you as well.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: 2nd Quality Moulding : How Much Should I Expect?

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi Colin,

Have you had a look at the mouldings made by Wessex Pictures using Koto? Koto is a wood that is not completely dissimilar to oak, but without having the banding effect in the grain, that you don't much like. I'm planning on getting some of These mouldings from Wessex Pictures, because I want to increase the range of hardwoods, that I can offer to my customers.

Wessex Pictures are not the cheapest supplier for hard wood mouldings, but the quality of their mouldings is seriously impressive. If you are out to get a reputation for your hard wood frames, maybe you should contact them foe some samples of their Koto bare wood mouldings range. I thinking that you might be quite impressed with these and they may be a lot more like what you were hoping for.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Post Reply