Stacked Frames

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Freemo
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Stacked Frames

Post by Freemo »

These are a work of art and so creative. I’m interested in this type of work , would anyone show their work. Thanks in advance
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by prospero »

Well stacked. :lol:
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Not your average framer »

This particular picture was something that Peter first showed on this forum a long time ago and it was the thing which convinced me that I too wanted to get my self a table saw. I have not actually produced anything quite like in this picture, but I produce other things instead. Table saws are very useful for all sorts of things. Mine actually starts with a bit of a jerk, because it has a brush driven motor, which I think is not particularly ideal. Also the rip fence is only locked at one end and too easily flexes away from the true 90 dregee angle unless you are very careful. I use my table saw quite a lot for ripping down different mouldings to separate wanted parts of the moulding profile from unwanted parts. Very often the unwanted parts that are left over become converted into spacers with a bit of character to use within deep box frames. Spacers which have a little bit of a profiled visible face get look quite interesting and enhance the sales interest, which considerably improves the potential saleability. Stacked moulding frames is quite a significant part of what I do and enables me to create various frames which look different and very apealling.

I don't really know to what extent such frames would appeal in a larger more modern town, but my town in quite ancient and many of the homes in and around my town are from the medieval period and have a very old cottagey feel about them. So, much of want I have available for sale looks old, or a bit rustic, which seems to be a large part of my existing market. Mirros with shelves, or coat hooks, Old style box frames and display boxes allow customers to create a little bit of older style creativity in ther own homes and generates some useful sales for me. At one time the town was much busier with tourist, but much less so now and the tourist used to spend more money in the town as well. There is a definite need to use you imagination, to create items that will entice customers to spend their money. Anything which is to much "run of the mill" stuff which customers can find anywhere, has no urgency to be bought when they see it, after all the can buy it aytime the choose, anywhere else. So I'm into items which are both special and different. Getting customers to part with their money is not always easy.

I have a particular focus on doing interesting things with helpfully priced mouldings. There is a definite need to maximise the margin between the cost of producing things and the potential selling price. Not only does everything thing need to look really special, but it needs to be priced to make it worthwhile for you. Up market customers have a more realistic understanding of what nice things cost, where as many of the locals are more restained in what they will may. I have to say that it is not always easy cattering for both markets, within the same small shop. I don't know if I have found the perfect solution, but everything for cheaper items to the higher value items is created to interest customers who want something really special and I try very hard to have something for everyone and to suit different peoples budgets within reason. I don't do really cheapskate stuff at all, as that is just pointless. Items which are too slow to sell gradually gravitate to my special offers, budget box, I try to avoid any suggestion that this is items which nobody else wanted and this box usual contain items from about £4 to about £10.

Believe me, the stuff in this box is still really nice stuff is still very much worth the prices!
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Not your average framer »

Stacked moulding frames don't have to be large frames with wider overall moulding profiles. A lot of mine are often smaller frames and fairly narrow overall moulding profiles. Minimalist and super modern frames are not always what everone is looking for and a lot of the smaller frames in older looking profiles and in muted, or washed pastel combinations offen sell very well indeed. I used to regularly buy Some of Frintons mouldings bargain bundles, which were a mixed of different mouldings, if you bought plenty of these at the same time, you were able to match up different lengths of the same moulding from different bundles and use these as a stock moulding while they lasted. There were very often several narrower lengths of interesting moulding in traditional finishes, which were often idea for stacking together with another narrower moulding and afterwards adding an overall neutral wax and wash which made the two mouldings look like one complete moulding. I quite often still use this technique, or variations of the same technique, where the wash is mixed into the wax and then heated to set the wax and fill any gaps where the two mouldings meet.

I also have various combinations of normal colour tinted waxes, to which I add an appropraite muted wash to create antique and "rustic" looking finishes to add on top of frames made from not quite perfect off cuts and left overs. It often work particularly well in cracks within and around knots and dings in pieces of moulding. There is a definite technique to antiquing less that perfect looking off cuts of pine moulding. so that it looks "just right" and really authentic looking "rutic" style frames can be a very useful sales item. As it happens, I don't always get enough off cuts, with knots and ding to make as many of the "rustic" pine frames as I am able to sell. I can sell these manky looking "rustic" frames at a higher price than just lain pine frames and they never take long to sell. It is not difficult to buy certain pine mouldings fro other sources, which have many more knots, but too manys knots does not look the same and does appeal to customers, so much. Too many knots start to look like it's not really decent quality pine and it's just looks cheap! The driftwood look can be very effective and buying some factor produced driftwood moulding can look better than others.

There is a look for driftwood mouldings which include some machined mouldings as well, but such moulding are not always available at worthwhile prices, but stacking an cleaper and fairly plain driftwood moulding with some thing to add some really nice visual interest can often be very worthwhile and I do this from time to time. I like to buy my driftwood pine mouldings in dicout quantites to save some useful money, which is very helpful. Depending of what different mouldings are stacked together, I can easily produce a variety of various frames to sell and a range of prices and appeal to different customers with different budgets. This is an area where it is definitely worth saving any scraps and left overs to makes smaller frames for the bargain box. Event small driftwood style frames are still popular, if they look "just right!" You will make often more money by making more smaller to medium sized frames, from a length of pine driftwood moulding than by making less larger frames from the same length of moulding. Again dont underestimate the market for narrower stacked profiles when include apiece of driftwood moulding in that stacked moulding frame.

I like to buy wider driftwood mouldings and slice them down into multiple extra narrow mouldings to be stacked with other bit and pieces which need using up and there general sell very well. The smoothness of the cut when cutting rebates on a table saw in such pine mouldings can vary a bit and the direction of cut depending from which end of the length can make adeference. To be honest, this is too much fiddling around fro me and as I produce these cut down lengths intending to use them as stacked moulding, i seek to stack something into the rebate to hid any roughly finished saw cuts. By the time the frames are produced and handfinished they just look fine and it's no problem! Wide flat ribbed moulding are also well worth slicing up to add into the mix on stacked moulding frames as well. Stacked moulding frame never want to look boring, lack interest. It might be a stacked moulding frame, but that won't sell it if it lacks that vital visual interest. I even add some false nail hole to some stacked moulding frames and these often attract some very helpful customer interest, for bespoke framing orders!

Many of my real favorite stacked moulding combination are only used for besoke franing orders, ther are still some whick I also use for frames which are displayed in the windows for sale to passing customers to buy. The stock in my shop in probably about 90 percent bare wood mouldings and most of my output is either stand moulding frames, or handfinisihed frames. I cannot financially servive on too many of the "run of the mill" cheap stuff as the cheaper stuff needs a lot more volume of sales than my little town tends to provide, so if I can't get the volume, then decent prices become much more important and decent price mean special, different and special items. This is in reality what is known as "niche market items". It's worked so far and it's what I am still trying to rely upon. As a rule most of what I do is putting all my eggs in the same basket, or variations there of. There are some stacked and handfinished mouldings which I do which are a passably good copy of some upmarket Larson juhl moulding, much of their more recent stull is far less easy to copy really well and the time that it takes is not economically quite so beneficial.

Getting out and about and spotting ideas in upmarket places and auction sales rooms used to be a mojor source of my inspiration, but now this is much less easy. Looking at on-line photographs from auctions, just is not where it is for me. I need to see most things for really and understand for things look in the light when viewed for different directions. Ideas that I get from old, or antique furniture is much more touchy, feely, but I have slowly developed into a totally different level of creativity, where I not find that I can produce really inspiring finishes all by my self. Without needing to get out and about anywhere near so much. I've been doing this for quite a while now, but the enjoyment and the motivation has not faded and inspite of the affects of the stroke, I am still producing the same really high quility of workmanship. Frankly I find this really amazng, particularly as when I first came out of hospital I was rubbish at just about everything, but even when I was completely useless, I kept on practicing and got it all back somehow.

The medical people are quite surpressed and I've even been allowed to drive a car again. I not joking, but stacked mouldings, handfinishing and making really nice quality special things is still what it is all about for me and I think that I have a lot to be thankful for. A lot of people have been praying for me and being interested in how I have been progressing. It's been a very long, hard journey and I just thank God that I've not ended up on the scrap heap. Inspite of today's present problems and difficulties, I'm still going for it.
Mark Lacey

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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Freemo »

Thanks for your replies. I’m not in my workshop this weekend but will get in there next week and keep practicing. I don’t have an underpinned so sometimes the joints open up , even though the wood is the same lengths, Is there a way of preventing this
Thanks again
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi freemo,

To rely only upon glued joints is not really the best idea. Glue, without some kind of mechanical fixing as well does not really guarantee the best result. Long grain to long grain joints are much stronger glued joints in wood, but mitred joints are end grain to end grain and the glue gets stucked up into the end grain of the wood leaving much less at glue at the actual site of the joint, resulting in a much weaker joint. An underpinner would considerably strengthen the joint and greatly reduce the potential for failure of the joint. Also the glue has much less contact surface where there is only end grain, end grain is like lots of little hollow tubes and the solid surface area facing what ever it going to be glued to is almost nothing!

Personally, I even go for a bit of overkill, in terms of how many wedges I use per corner joint. I like very solid and rigid joints even before the glue has had any time to start setting. I don't think that it is acceptable to expect to sell any frames which do not have a secondary method of fixing the corner joints, other than just the glue only. Those glue only corner joins are pretty much guaranteed to fail and badly damage your businesses reputation. Belleve me this is a really bad idea, you must get an underpinner. It's very, very important! Don't make corner joints which are just waiting to fail! BTW, you really need to buy a woodworking grade of PVA glue, not universal PVA, which is not really adequate!
All the best,
Mark.
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Freemo »

Thanks again Mark. I have a hand held underpinned but this is t the best and often causes problems and the joking opens when I’ve tried to use it. At the min I’m not able to afford a nice expensive one that would be perfect. I’m going to have a look around and see what’s available locally.
Thanks
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi freemo,

You don't need a really up to date, expensive underpinner as there are a few around which are older and more basic, which can be bought quite cheaply and are build like tanks and just lasts forever! One of these is the manual Pistorius underpinner the pedal oporate the rest of it via something quite like a bycycle chain. You need to screw the top clamp presure pad in and out of it pivoted clamp arm to get in to the right height to clamp down flat onto the top of the moulding.

Not everybody wants to do that these days and often choose an underpinner which has a self adjusting top clamp height instead, but costs a lot more money. Also there are a few other good machines which are available as secondhand at lower prices. Older machines are not necessarily supported for spares, but they are often quite cheap and as time goes on the easy option is to look for another cheap underpinner as a back up, in case your main machine develops a problem and you need to use something else, while you get the other one sorted.
Mark Lacey

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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Not your average framer »

Hi freemo,

Stacked moulding frames was originally something which I only slowly got into myself and I don't think that you need to get into doing stacked moulding frames as a really mojor activity from day one. Instead you can make it a gentle start and see how you go and how much you like it as well. In time, you will be able to choose you own individual emphasis and your own preferred style a techniques, as you see fit. Most framers doing Stacked mouldng frames are already doing their own thing anyway. Don't worry, it's something which just happens and you just grow into it at your own pace!

In my own case it has a lot to do with having my own favorite stacked moulding frames and variations on these same combinations according to what I have left over and want to use up. It does not have to be anything very specific at all. I am mostly looking for really great value for money Pine and Obeche mouldings which enables me to produce something which looks really special at a really affordable price. I'm really interested in producing something which does not cost too much, but sells for a really worthwhile price tag!

Most frames are handfinish will quick, simple and easy techniques and materials. I like muted colours and often use added washed effects as well. It's often about work with shapes, transitions and hiding the joins between mouldings. The handfinished bit needs to be mostly quite simple and straight forward to do, but done in such a ways as to look like something fairly special. It's the really special perception, which creates the perceived upmarket image and value. It's always good to offer customers some lower value items which they are less likely to want and they will then pay a bit extra for what they really want, more easily.
Mark Lacey

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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Justintime »

Hey Freemo,
I can recommend a Cassese CS88 underpinner. I found mine on Facebook marketplace for £100 then spent another £125ish on a set of spares, bungs and some wedges. They really are brilliant and simple machines. If you have a look on ebay-sold items you'll see that they come up a few a month for really good prices. Mark at Underpinnerspares.co.uk can supply new bungs etc and talk you through what you need for a good spares kit. Just stay well away from the CS1 which will be a lot more money and in my opinion absolute rubbish!
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Justintime »

This is a simple stacked frame, if this is what you mean. A Larson Juhl Angus outside and Komodo inside.
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Freemo »

Thanks Justin , dry useful info for me and anyone else
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Not your average framer »

Well yes, that is a stacked moulding frame, but stacked moulding frames are not always produced using frames which have been supplied as ready finished from the suppier. This is not the way that I generally do stack moulding frames, instead I produce hand finished stacked moulding frames as this is much more cost effective to buy bare wood moulding and handfinish them myself. The object in mind is too produce a more worthwhile profit margin for myself and also to create a very appeal frame finish for the customer at the same time.

Handfinished stacked moulding frames are aimed at a higher quality end of the market, where customers are looking for something which is an obviously superior quality frame. It's a niche market thing and something special, for those are happy to pay for the best.
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Justintime »

I agree in principle Mark, but let's not discourage people from experimenting. Hand finishing can be a daunting prospect and from my experience takes a lot of time and practice. I would always encourage new framers to try their hand at it, because as you say it can produce a much higher quality result, eventually.
As far as this example goes, the art work was high value and these prefinished mouldings fitted the brief from the customer. I could never replicate a faux leather finish or a two tone sprayed finish like these with the equipment and time I had to frame it.
As far as cost effective and profit margins are concerned, I think it very much depends on your business model.
Taking your advice, I would never sell quality glass, because it costs me so much more to buy than regular float glass and the profit margin is lower, but that just doesn't make sense.
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Tudor Rose »

Here’s a fun one using the Larson-Juhl Anvil range that is specifically designed to stack together. These pieces were collected during Ten Tors training on Dartmoor and we’ve attached them using magnets set into a beautiful piece of the old school stage from my High School. Quality bit of aged pine adds a bit of character.
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Tudor Rose »

….. and of course we do hand finish stacked mouldings too. Few examples below. It’s about working to your strengths and interests and as always in this trade, there’s always more than one way to do something. What suits one business model, won’t suit another.

Yes, hand-finishing can start with bare woods that may be cheaper. But factor in the labour charge, materials and clean down afterwards if you don’t have a dedicated space and often the savings are less than you might think. It’s about being honest about how much time some of these things take in comparison and also meeting our customers’ requirements.

I would hate for anyone to be put off trying stacking factory finish frames. It’s where many of us start!
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Justintime »

Stunning examples Jo. I'm hoping Alec will be around for a chat over the Guild weekend? I'd love to get more of an insight into working with magnets and I'm sure Erica would love to chat to him about hand finishing.
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Tudor Rose »

Hi Justin

Thanks for the comments :D and yes, Alec will be there! He's going to be talking about box frames and extending rebates as well as on hand to answer any other queries you might have. We might have to look at talking about working with magnets in a CPD article or maybe at the Guild Weekend next year. :clap:

Looking forward to seeing you there!

Jo
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by vintage frames »

Your black and gold scoops look terrific.
Simple and very effective.
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Re: Stacked Frames

Post by Tudor Rose »

Thank you :D all my husband Alec's work. I will pass on your comments.

He started as a gunmaker with Holland & Holland and that was where he discovered his love of wood finishing. When he moved into his family business of picture framing in the early 1990s, it allowed him to experiment by stacking frames and applying different finishes. But since 2006 and with our own business, he's just grown that side of of things in a way he's parent's business model didn't fully allow.
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