Advice please - just starting out :-)

[fraggle]

Dear all

You may want to make yourself a cuppa before you read this!

This is a long query but I would really appreciate the use of your wisdom and experience to assist me with one or more of the queries below so thank you in advance for reading this and any responses.

I am in the process of setting up a framing business based at home. The workshop is nearly there – just need lights, electrics, worktop and storage…..yay

1. Workshop – my workshop is not square as it fits within our triangular garden but dimensions are 3.9m min/4.2m max wide and 5.2m min /6.5m max long. It has got three large windows + 4 skylights and will have 4 x strip daylights. I have a plan chest which I will initially use for storage of artwork to frame. It will have an air conditioner to prevent overheating but this will also double as a heater so as to maintain a suitable temperature range for the materials.
Workshop layout:
Would you recommend two separate worktop areas for 1) mount cutter/final assembly and 2) glass cutting and underpinning or would one long one be just as useful? Or is it just personal preference.
Do you need access to all 4 sides of a worktop for all stages of work?
Work top – what material has worked best for you? I have some ¾”thick ply or some 1” thick former laboratory work top as my two options. Do you have any opinion on which would be better?
What do you cover your work top with e.g. floatex or I also saw some ribbed rubber in a magazine – but I assume this would be for a glass cutting and not final mounting surface.
Mount board storage:
Do you find that flat or vertical storage works best for mount board? I am thinking that in a plan chest it may get damaged when sorting through it but if it is vertical may be more prone to fading if the storage is open sided.
Are the metal mount cutter supports of use?
Would you recommend also purchasing a dehumidifier to maintain a suitable humidity?
2. Machinery - I already have a Morso guillotine with spare blades, Keencut Ultimat Gold Mount cutter (48”), Cassese CS 88 underpinner, Rondo (?) round/oval mount/glass cutter, Fletcher 60” wall mounted cutter and machine (whose name escapes me!) that has a reservoir of water that applies it to paper tape as it pulls out.
What kind of other machinery do you find indispensable - anything that you would wish you had or had not bought at the beginning?!
3. Basic stock recommendations for mouldings etc.
There are a plethora of various moulding out there from loads of suppliers...
Do you recommend using “chop” service for obtaining mouldings, in particular when starting out?
Is there a particularly good company for providing this service or do you shop around depending on the moulding required?
4. Other equipment/sundries
Not expecting a full “shopping list” here but what “basics” would you recommend to get started?
5. Preferred supplier(s)/samples of mouldings
Do you have a preferred supplier for mouldings?
Which are the best at supplying samples and/or merchandising/display items?
6. Glass size/stock
I have a wall mounted glass/mount board 60”cutter but what maximum size glass usually needs to be stocked and how easily handled is this largest size?!!!
What types of glass do you usually keep a stock of?
7. Training, GCF courses and membership
I have done some training with Lyn Hall and am planning some more custom 1:1 training soon.
Do you recommend taking the GCF course(s) – do you think they are a good qualification to post on e.g. website.
As far as membership of the Guild is concerned, which I recall is expensive, do you find it a worthwhile investment and the difference between customers choosing you versus a non guild member or is it hard to gauge? Are there any other benefits of membership that you have found?
8. Best skills to learn e.g. 3D mounting etc.
Are there particular basic and more complex mounting and framing skills that are particularly useful to learn/commonly requested e.g. box frames for baby’s first shoes.
9. Building up a portfolio
Before you got started, did you build up a portfolio of examples of work to use on websites/take photos of/display in the workshop so that clients get an idea of what kind of work can be done?
10. Advertising
I realise that there are different opinions/experiences regarding this one…..
When starting out and combining with other part time employment, do you think that it is best just to build up business slowly via word of mouth? I guess that answer depends on how long I want to hang onto my other job.
Bearing in mind that I am trying to keep costs to a minimum, what advertising has worked best for you – e.g. parish magazine, local village notice boards, schools (e.g. for children’s portrait photos.
Are business cards a useful “tool” even on a small scale?
Is a website useful from the beginning even if it is a basic one with contact details, a few examples of work and a list/photos of the kind of things that can be framed/mounted?
Further down the line are e.g. wedding or craft fairs of use for promoting business/getting business?
11. Pricing
As far as pricing structure e.g. use of computerised pricing programmes is concerned, I see that there have been various posts on this in the past and realise what works best for one person does not work for another – are there any particular “dos” or “don’ts”?
12. “Mates Rates”/introductory offers, initial pricing….
When starting out and doing framing for friends, did you offer an e.g. introductory price/offer discount or is it best to charge the same price for all? Do you think that it devalues your work and makes things more awkward/complicated in the long term?
Are there any other suggestions as to offers/pricing schemes that you used when starting out to gain business?
13. General set up
I am in the situation where I am employed part time at the moment. At what stage do you need to start considering things like public liability insurance, VAT and company registration etc? Anyone/anywhere you could recommend for obtaining advice about this?
14. Home visits?
Do any of you currently offer this? I can see that this would be impractical in some ways but have any of you had any experience of trying this (good or bad)?
15. Imaging software
This is something for the future, but have any of you invested in computer imaging software? I am of the opinion that there is nothing quite like using real life chevron samples of moulds/frames but realise that you cannot stock a full range of items from various suppliers and that this could be a useful tool for showing all possibilities and avoiding a result that a customer may not be happy and also for comparing different options side by side. Also, have any of you found them useful for e.g. “home visits” when you obviously cannot lug around the chevron samples!
16. And finally…..
If you are still asleep after reading this is there anything else obvious that I have forgotten to ask or any general tips?

Thank you in advance to you all of your for your advice and tips, and don’t worry, my future posts will not be nearly as long as this one, just want to plan ahead and do this properly!

Fraggle

[Roboframer]

Welcome Fraggle.

I don't think anyone is going to post a detailed answer to all of those 1questions - that would be some post! And I doubt if 15 people will give a detailed answer to one each, or 8 people 2 each, or 4 people 4 each.

On No7 though - get as much training as you can, where many of your questions can be answered as you go. Check out framing courses in the Picture Framers Directory in the sidebar to the left (plug plug - I'm not too far from you)

GCF courses/FATG membership - good idea, as long as you are not just a passive member, because if you are, nothing will happen - and nor will it if you pass your GCF test, as in increased sales - unless you use it/your membership to promote yourself, which the FATG can help you with.

Good luck - you've got far more/better equipment than I had when I started out.

[Roboframer]

PS - a detailed search through this sub-forum 'general discussion' will unearth many of the answers to your questions.

Here's another useful forum too. http://www.thegrumble.com/

[mikeysaling]

im not a guru - but check out local competition - what do they offer and IS there a lot of competition - you seem to have all the kit you have certainly more that i had (still have) you have to get experience in framing so whatever it takes do some courses or start with simple jobs and come to this site when you need help! basic framing is fairly simple - can you cut a good mitre use the ultimat accurately are you careful and patient. when i started (after being a banker -w****r for 30 years ) when i wasn't happy with a frame/mount i just tore it apart and chucked it - i reckoned if i didn't like it then it its in the bin - NEVER let a customer go home with something you would not go home with, spend a lot of time with the ultimatget to know it make sure its square get those overcuts to zero dont let anyone near that machine when its set right. Morso is a bit easier keep 2 spare sets of blades and have them sharpened by professionals (dare i sat LION who are the best) underpinner - i dont have much experience with these BIG jobs but would think read maintenance instructions and keep it clean (i use a hand underpinner) . A framer has to be a lot of things a bit of an artist a mechanic and a businessman. THIS SITE WIL CERTAINLY HELP YOU never be afraid to ask for help whatever the question is its never daft believe me - IM STILL LEARNING - ASK nigel!!

[prospero]

Hi and Welcome Fraggle.


OK. You asked for it........

1. Workshop – my workshop is not square as it fits within our triangular garden but dimensions are 3.9m min/4.2m max wide and 5.2m min /6.5m max long. It has got three large windows + 4 skylights and will have 4 x strip daylights. I have a plan chest which I will initially use for storage of artwork to frame. It will have an air conditioner to prevent overheating but this will also double as a heater so as to maintain a suitable temperature range for the materials.
Workshop layout:
Would you recommend two separate worktop areas for 1) mount cutter/final assembly and 2) glass cutting and underpinning or would one long one be just as useful? Or is it just personal preference.
Do you need access to all 4 sides of a worktop for all stages of work?
Work top – what material has worked best for you? I have some ¾”thick ply or some 1” thick former laboratory work top as my two options. Do you have any opinion on which would be better?
What do you cover your work top with e.g. floatex or I also saw some ribbed rubber in a magazine – but I assume this would be for a glass cutting and not final mounting surface.
Mount board storage:
Do you find that flat or vertical storage works best for mount board? I am thinking that in a plan chest it may get damaged when sorting through it but if it is vertical may be more prone to fading if the storage is open sided.
Are the metal mount cutter supports of use?
Would you recommend also purchasing a dehumidifier to maintain a suitable humidity?

I think you will find a workshop will naturally evolve. The most awkward thing is the Morso as it need about 7ft to the right and ideally about 10ft to the left. It's a good idea to install this first and fit every thing around it. It's also nice if you can get around all sides of the main workbench or failing this three sides. Most is common sense. E.G store the glass as near to the glass cutter as you can.
My worktops are 19mm chipboard topped with carpet. The carpet is short-pile kitchen type stuff with not too strong a colour or pattern as some can make your eyes go funny under bright lights. I also have a drawing board topped with an A0 cutting mat for mount assembling and lining.
I have a number of 'bins' for mountboard. Similar principle to a print browser and made of chipboard. Strips of thin wood on the base stop the packs from flopping about.
Not sure what you mean by 'metal mount cutter supports'. (???)
Air-con good idea to stop sweaty hands in hot weather.

Part 2 tomorow...... I have to get up at the crack of 9 to drive down to some strange do in the Peoples Republic of Warwickshire. And the clocks go forward tonight.

[Gesso&Bole]

Hi Fraggle, and welcome.

Its exciting isn't it!

By the sounds of it you are starting off with a much bigger workshop, and better equipment than most, so I'm sure you will be fine.

A few points that I would pick up from your post though . . . .

Mountboard storage is much better vertical - less damage when rummaging through - under the bench is the best option, something like the Framers Bench or Keencut do one too, I think - or you can make your own.

Other equipment you may need? - I wouldn't buy anything else, until you need it, otherwise you can become addicted to the Framer's porn mag (Lion Catalogue) and end up with all sorts of stuff that you will never use.

Mates rates etc?/and pricing in general. BIGGEST problem new starters have is not charging enough money to justify the work, nad the investment made. Think in terms of how much you would have to pay per hour to get your car mended and work on that. And as Mikey said, if you are still learning, throw it away if it is not up to professional standard, and start again. Better to bin it than sell it cheap and downvalue your service for ever.

Supplier - I would try and find a wholesaler that does a weekly van delivery - then you can buy a wide range of small quantities of everything - they will often also supply free chevrons so you can show a wider range than you stock

VAT reg etc - talk to an accountant, but vat is about £70k turnover so you won't need to worry to start with - you will also get access to free training on all sorts of start up topics throuh your local business link - well worth doing if you dont have experience of this stuff.

I wish you luck, it sounds as though you have everything well thought out

Oh, and one more thing - if you post less questions at once you might get answers to all of them!!!

All the best

[sim.on]

fraggle, no. 10 advertising

You are obviously going to need some good quality flyers printed. What I did was to go online and see how to design an effective leaflet (ie to catch the householders attention between the doormat and the bin). There's some really good free info available. I then emailed two sides of handwritten A5 to a company advertising on ebay to design and print 5000 full colour double sided A5 leaflets. I was blown away with the results. The cost was 40 pounds plus vat for the two sided design and 65 pounds no vat and free postage for the leaflets. On one side I included four colour photos of framed pictures as examples including one wedding and one baby picture and these really grab peoples' attention.

[David]

Hi Fraggle

Welcome, that is one hell of a list. I am alway keen to encourage anyone interested in the business, you have already got off to a good start if you have been to Lyn Hall. I see you are in Kent I am in North Surrey/South London if you want to see my shop, have a coffee - and go through the list give me a call.

David.

[fraggle]

Wow!

Already so much useful info

thanks so much, I'll keep checking

Fraggle

[prospero]

2. Machinery - I already have a Morso guillotine with spare blades, Keencut Ultimat Gold Mount cutter (48”), Cassese CS 88 underpinner, Rondo (?) round/oval mount/glass cutter, Fletcher 60” wall mounted cutter and machine (whose name escapes me!) that has a reservoir of water that applies it to paper tape as it pulls out.
What kind of other machinery do you find indispensable - anything that you would wish you had or had not bought at the beginning?!

Sounds you have a good selection of kit there. The lick-sticky machine is a good choice.
Leaving aside small hand tools, that's really all you need. If you want to do dry-mounting and laminating, a vacuum press is the thing to have. But a good one is expensive. Depends how much use you have for it.

[Perfection]

Bejaysus Fraggle,

We started out 6 months ago. If you want a chat about the 4 things we got right and the 987656 we got wrong, give me a call tomorrow>

Paul
01484 609816

[prospero]

3. Basic stock recommendations for mouldings etc.
There are a plethora of various moulding out there from loads of suppliers...
Do you recommend using “chop” service for obtaining mouldings, in particular when starting out?
Is there a particularly good company for providing this service or do you shop around depending on the moulding required?

Don't go mad and buy too much. Most suppliers will let you buy a couple of sticks, even one, of this and that to try out. Eventually you will find the 'magic' ones and also the problematic ones. Chop service is great for expensive stuff that you might only use once. But chop is more expensive per foot. You may find that to make say, a 36x24 in an expensive moulding that you will never use again, it is cheaper to buy two lengths than have it chopped. And given that you have all the gear to cut it anyway...........

Bad things to look for in moulding styles:

Propensity to twist.
Delicate finish - easy to mark.
Shallow rebates.
Inconsistent finish.
Manky wood.
Thick compo that chips when cut.
Overpriced.

Bear in mind that you will always use more moulding than you would think. If you buy 100' and 85' ends up in frames, you are doing OK.

[prospero]

4. Other equipment/sundries
Not expecting a full “shopping list” here but what “basics” would you recommend to get started?

Tools....

Things I use on a daily basis.....

Tape measure. Engineers steel rule and vernier guage. Pliers with side cutters. Long.nosed pliers. Two cordless drills -one for screwdriving, one for drilling. Point driver. Lots of small snap-off knives. Lots of other small gizmos that you can buy when you need.

Sundries.......

Too many to list.

[prospero]

5. Preferred supplier(s)/samples of mouldings
Do you have a preferred supplier for mouldings?

I use Rose&Hollis mainly. But that's because I buy mostly raw wood profiles. I will say that for sheer bend-over-backwards customer service they are hard to fault.
I have used nearly all the main suppliers at one time and another and in all fairness I can't say there is one to avoid.
Most suppliers will gladly provide short samples FOC. And a nominal charge for chrevrons.

[prospero]

6. Glass size/stock
I have a wall mounted glass/mount board 60”cutter but what maximum size glass usually needs to be stocked and how easily handled is this largest size?!!!
What types of glass do you usually keep a stock of?

With all sheet materials (not just sheets) come to think...), it's a case of the bigger the sheet, the less waste. Having said that, you have to consider ease of handling and storage. 4x3 sheets seem to be the happy medium unless you have plenty of room and arms like a gibbon.

I use standard float or museum. Lots of stuff inbetween, but the logistics of storing offcuts can become an issue if you have lots of different grades.

[prospero]

7. Training, GCF courses and membership
I have done some training with Lyn Hall and am planning some more custom 1:1 training soon.
Do you recommend taking the GCF course(s) – do you think they are a good qualification to post on e.g. website.
As far as membership of the Guild is concerned, which I recall is expensive, do you find it a worthwhile investment and the difference between customers choosing you versus a non guild member or is it hard to gauge? Are there any other benefits of membership that you have found?

Like lots of others I picked it up as I went along. I did learn a lot from other framers and from reference books. A formal training course is a good thing, but all framers have their own individual methods. Don't be afraid to keep an open mind.
This forum is as good a training ground as any.
FATG?
I was a member at one time. That was when the annual subscription was about £30 and you got 6 mags per year.. If you want to have the Gulld logo over your door and on your letterhead, join by all means. I never found any other benefit. I once got a quote for insurance from the Guild that was about three times as expensive than the Pru. Go figure.

[fraggle]

Thank you everyone for all of your offers
I am fighting a bug at the moment so am fuzzy headed and off to bed but will read them in detail and contact you soon
Fraggle

[Jonny2morsos]

Do you need access to all 4 sides of a worktop for all stages of work?

First time you get in a big job you will realise how important this one is. In my current premises all my benches are up against a wall (due to configuration of internal walls) and whenever a big job has to be done it means moving everything around and using the largest surface I have which is in the shop area. This can involve me going in on our closing day as for safety reasons I do not like 3' x 4' sheets of glass where customers might bump into them. Guess what I am doing on Good Friday!

Priority for our new premises is a big island bench.