They Should be Ashamed!

Discuss Picture Framing topics.

PLEASE USE THE HELP SECTION
WHEN SEEKING OR OFFERING HELP!
User avatar
Gesso&Bole
Posts: 951
Joined: Wed 24 Mar, 2010 3:35 pm
Location: Nottingham
Organisation: Jeremy Anderson Picture Frame Maker
Interests: Framing pictures, testing out the latest gismos, and sharing picture framing knowledge
Contact:

They Should be Ashamed!

Post by Gesso&Bole »

I have just had a few days off, and been touring in the Cotswolds. As you do, I have dragged my wife around every single framers and gallery that I found.

We went to Cirencester, Broadway, Moreton-on-Marsh and Stratford-upon-Avon

In 4 separate premises (no names no pack drill) I saw framed pictures for sale at over £200 framed with standard mountboard that has already gone dark brown on the bevel! Not to mention corners that don't join . . . . get a grip guys!

On the other hand - in Broadway I saw some fantastic examples of real quality frame making - something to do with our very own Gesso, I believe. Well Done Broadway, a credit to the profession!
Jeremy (Jim) Anderson
Picture Framer and Framing Industry Educator
https://www.jeremyanderson.co.uk/
https://www.instagram.com/ja_picture_framer/
Roboframer

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by Roboframer »

I wonder, out of any that had conservation boards, how many had UV glass or even offered it?

But protection aside - brown bevels (and credit card mitres of course) just look nasty - best one I saw, recently, was a Beryl Cooke Silkscreen priced at just under a grand with a triple 'V' groove - at first I thought they were gold lines, but they were brown 'V' grooves.
User avatar
mikeysaling
Posts: 1557
Joined: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: braintree essex
Organisation: sarah jane framing
Interests: astronomy medals photography
Contact:

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by mikeysaling »

hi robo can you explain credit card mitres - not heard that expression before?

mikey
when all is said and done - there is more said than done.
huntvambo
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue 28 Jul, 2009 4:31 pm
Location: Worcestershire
Organisation: Framed
Interests: Music, cycling, drinking, The Sensational Alex Harvey Band
Contact:

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by huntvambo »

credit card mitres

you can get a credit card in the gap, only edge ways if it's good :roll:

Paul
Framed in Alvechurch
User avatar
mikeysaling
Posts: 1557
Joined: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: braintree essex
Organisation: sarah jane framing
Interests: astronomy medals photography
Contact:

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by mikeysaling »

thanks for explan. do framers (any framers) sell stuff like that? i have never had a corner with gaps and can only assume its really really sloppy underpinning cause the morso (etal) used and adjusted properly will give a perfect 45 degree surely? I suppose twisted / warped moulding would do that - if i see moulding like that - back it goes!
when all is said and done - there is more said than done.
Roboframer

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by Roboframer »

If you click on the framing oracle top of the sidebar to the left (it's a Wiki - you can add/edit stuff) you'll find some terms you may not be familiar with like 'snotwood' and FLUMBS
Nigel Nobody

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by Nigel Nobody »

We have 'bus' joints down here! Yep, that's right.......you could drive a bus into some of the canyons in those joints!
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by Not your average framer »

Gesso&Bole wrote:We went to Cirencester, Broadway, Moreton-on-Marsh and Stratford-upon-Avon
While you were in Moreton-in-the Marsh, did you perchance visit a gallery on the main street called something like "Antiques Gallery"? Most of the framing in that Gallery is fully hand-finished closed corner frames to an excellent standard and well worth a visit for those who want to see what traditional quality framing should look like.

My wife and I always return from the Spring Fair via the A429 (Fosse way) so we can stop off in Moreton and I can have a quick look in this gallery. Not far away is a little pedestrian arcade containing a nice little cafe / restuarant called the Olive tree which does really nice grub too!

You did not mention Stow-on-the-Wald. The town has several galleries which are worth a look too! Some are easy to miss, so have a good look around. The galleries in both towns are into "traditional antique style" frames and have proved a good source of inspiration for me over the years.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Perfection
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed 17 Mar, 2010 1:57 pm
Location: Huddersfield, UK
Organisation: Framed To Perfection
Interests: Photography, Fell walking

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by Perfection »

Some real funny stuff going on out there. We had a client 2 weeks ago had bought two lovely "limited edition mounted prints" from a "gallery" in the Lake District and asked us to frame them. I know which gallery but I'm not putting it in print. The prints were taped down to very bowed undermounts with masking tape and if we'd framed them as they were, I believe we would have been commiting a serious offence! All we had to do was peel off the masking tape, hinge-mount them to decent board and frame appropriately. I contacted the gallery (owned by artist of said prints) to see if we could buy some of the prints unmounted for our own gallery.

Not interested.

Maybe when you have a shop in the right location (thousands of tourists with lots of money thinking "it's a gallery in the Lake District, must be good"), well maybe you just milk it and bank the cash>

Alright for some.

At least I sleep at night

But then I'm skint!!
framemaker

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by framemaker »

Ormond, the framer I learnt from also used to say "you could drive a bus down that gap!" mind you, he was very critical and fond of exaggerating.

NYAF also beat me to it, Stow-on-the-Wold also has a few really good galleries.

But Broadway does have more than its fair share of really good galleries, traditional, contemporary, and modern. I am lucky to live here, so often get the chance to have a look round, and always see some great framing techniques. It was seeing the frames and techniques in these galleries which first inspired me too try and learn how these frames were made, I used to call them London frames but now know they are made all over the country, from Scotland to Devon.

To be honest you also see some awful work, but still much more really good framing, I think this is mainly down to the galleries insisting that the artists get their work framed well and to a high standard.
User avatar
mikeysaling
Posts: 1557
Joined: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: braintree essex
Organisation: sarah jane framing
Interests: astronomy medals photography
Contact:

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by mikeysaling »

maybe a two penneth from me - wifey is always telling me to look at the picture! whenever we 'jointly' look at artwork i'm looking at the mitres and the mountboard cuts - think i only look at the picture if the frame and framing passes muster! part of my banking training was with ford motor co and i remember a quality control guy telling me whenever he saw a 'new' car he ran his little finger down the 'a' pillar and round the front door to check the gap! he also looked from the front along the side to look for ripples in the bodywork!! RR never passed that test because they were using rimming steel and silence was their objective - visual quality was fords objective ( i can explain further if required) but the message is the customer has a different perspective to the framer!

having said that the worst frames i have seen locally have been done by the artist him or herself but they always get top dollar for their work framed in the most appaling way!! AND 99% of their customers dont even consider re-framing it!! I know one local artist who will halve the price of his work with no frame or mount.
when all is said and done - there is more said than done.
User avatar
Jonny2morsos
Posts: 2231
Joined: Wed 12 Mar, 2008 10:28 pm
Location: Lincs
Organisation: Northborough Framing
Interests: Fly Fishing, Photography and Real Ale.
Location: Market Deeping

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by Jonny2morsos »

We had an "Original Print" in yesterday complete with Certificate of Authenticity signed by an "Antique Prints Expert".

Took it out of its packet, turned it over to reveal printing on the back complete with the page number of the book it had been cut out of!
Mary Case GCF

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by Mary Case GCF »

we've got an "original and handmade" picture of the fab four in for framing bought from covent garden - it's just a print. not a very good one at that.
huntvambo
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue 28 Jul, 2009 4:31 pm
Location: Worcestershire
Organisation: Framed
Interests: Music, cycling, drinking, The Sensational Alex Harvey Band
Contact:

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by huntvambo »

Similar to J2M, I had a photo to re-frame due to broken glass. Back of the frame had a sticker with the location and photographer details, when I opened it up to replace the damaged mounts the back of the photo had the July 2006 calender on it :shock:
valpendleton
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri 04 Jan, 2008 4:09 pm
Location: Brackley
Organisation: Rightangle
Interests: painting, photography,cooking, reading.
Location: Brackley, Northants
Contact:

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by valpendleton »

Perfection...

As artists as well as framers & publishers, my husband & I will happily sell our prints to other framers / galleries 'paper only', so they can mount & frame them to their own taste & maximise their profits. Do check out our websites if you have a spare minute. As we publish all the prints in-house we can keep the costs down. Trade prices are 50% of the web prices & as I said, paper only is not a problem with us.

http://www.valpendleton.com
http://www.pendleton.co.uk
kev@frames
Posts: 1951
Joined: Mon 09 Jan, 2006 12:06 am
Location: Penzance Cornwall UK
Organisation: Moonshine Framing Penzance
Interests: 4 or 5 ...
Location: West Cornwall, UK
Contact:

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by kev@frames »

Jonny2morsos wrote:We had an "Original Print" in yesterday complete with Certificate of Authenticity signed by an "Antique Prints Expert".

Took it out of its packet, turned it over to reveal printing on the back complete with the page number of the book it had been cut out of!
I started in this business with a stanley knife and a pile of punch magazines and atlases, a secondhand keencut laser from Ventons, and a pack of Optimat CO4 brown-bevel mountboard. Its where most"vintage" or "antique prints" come from. I sold tens of thousands of them, and used acres of optimat C04 or 975 colourmount.
Ashamed?
Nah. Thats what went on at the time.
I still smile when I see someone doing it now.
I mean, where do people think a 300 year old map comes from? Almost all prints over a certain age came out of a book at one time. "Original print" in this context is OK, as it means "not a repro". There are many shops in many towns still selling "vintage and antique" prints which are nothing more than mounted old bookplates. The heyday of this was in the 1990s. You could argue that a nice old brown bevel gives the vintage-ness of the item some additional cred.
We dont sell anything other than "conservation" at the shop counter though, and dont do frames with anything else. After all, times change, and "conservation" has become the norm for custom framing. But I can assure you there is a very healthy market for bulk mounts without frames in neutral pH cheap budget board as well. TBH I dont give a fork what they put in them and sell. If they arrive at our shop counter in a brown bevelled we'll suggest a better quality mount board if required, offer them a new mount at the going rate, and briefly touch on "it wont go brown and it'll look after it", but I long since got over worrying about other people's artwork if they are so tight that they want to save a few pence on a mount in the first place.
;)

;)
User avatar
mikeysaling
Posts: 1557
Joined: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: braintree essex
Organisation: sarah jane framing
Interests: astronomy medals photography
Contact:

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by mikeysaling »

agree kev - cannot name names but i have customers who say 'well i'm not going to be around - so if they want the medals 'conservation' framed they can pay for them' in the meantime its just handed down! also the house of cards who i do occasional work for ' if we are still in office - we'll review it then' - unfortunately a lot of people and organisations have short term objectives!
when all is said and done - there is more said than done.
Nigel Nobody

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by Nigel Nobody »

framemaker wrote:Ormond, the framer I learnt from also used to say "you could drive a bus down that gap!" mind you, he was very critical and fond of exaggerating.
I'm very flattered to know that someone actually remembered something I said!
By the way, I am still very critical and still very fond of exaggerating! Some have said that I am a perfectionist, but I strongly deny that. I could never even come close to achieving perfection, no matter how hard I tried and neither can anyone else!

The thing that is very important to me, and I hope is important to others is that framers do the best they can possibly do and learn to recognise when a joint is wide enough to drive a bus through and when other elements of the frame are crappy, then do something about it!
User avatar
mikeysaling
Posts: 1557
Joined: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: braintree essex
Organisation: sarah jane framing
Interests: astronomy medals photography
Contact:

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by mikeysaling »

hey ormond - hows bus down under? a lot of framers here are scrapping through. i'm a bit luckier with the medals its a bit specialist and i dont have to be busy 100 % but do feel for the other guys - our business is abut medals the framing s an add on thing s when customers ask about framing their meds - usualyy noone locally can do it or even know where to start. thats why i'm so ******** busy and all i do now is militaria ! and i still use MDF

mikey

btw - how many frames have you got in the pipe right now? honest please
when all is said and done - there is more said than done.
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: They Should be Ashamed!

Post by Not your average framer »

I too used to hand-colour, mount and sell antique prints when I used to own a secondhand books and antique prints shop in Newton Abbot. I also used to buy 20 sheet packs of Optimat mountboard and had an old C & H mountcutter.

I had a heavy duty A3 laminator and used to dry mount old adverts, which often needed flattening as many came from old magazines and periodicals.

Old Coca Cola adverts came from the back covers of National Geographic magazines (1930's to mid 1970's).

Guinness Adverts came from Country Life (upto about 1970), The Illustrated London News, The Graphic, The Sphere and a few others.

There were also many other adverts as you can no doubt imagine. Eventually the available sources of such old magazines just seemed to dry up and that was that. Also at the same time peoples tastes changed.

I still buy promising old prints from local auctions from time to time. This can still be worth doing, if you don't mind removing them from their original mounts /frames and re-framing to sell on.

Again promising material can be harder to find at a worthwhile price and I have to take care not to let others know that I'm bidding as it is assumed that the local framer has probably identified something of value and this increases the interest from other bidders.

Sadly almost everybody seems to think that they know how to make a quick buck and customers often bring in something which they bought on eBay which has been completely ruined by the original vendor. A particular problem being use of impact adhesives such as UHO or EVOSTICK to mount such items.

Removing badly cut mounts which have been glued to the actual item, is often too risky to try and there are times when the item is just worth bothering to frame, because the damage can't be corrected.

I know one or two antique dealers who get upto such tricks and a lot of people are very upset when they realise they have been stitched up and can't get their money back. For some strange reason some (not all) antique dealers seem to be able to get away with this, without any come backs at all.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Post Reply