Framers Eye

[realhotglass]

So, what is wrong with having a full backing board, secured the the frame with small screws at regular points around the perimeter ?
Looks good, provides pro, and all the support you could need.

Is MDF ok in the situation ?
If not what would you recommend ?

I have the diagram Robo posted, and one that someone else (from the G perhaps) drew to show the exaggerated effects . . .

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Also another pic of wiring diagram that goes to the bottom stiles.

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Another system I saw described on the G once, was only a worded description (see origianl text below as well), just had to draw it and photo quickly . . .

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This may be suitable for panos as well ?

Lincoln 8 point system for picture frame wiring on larger or heavier pieces.

Install eight eyelets (Infinity hangers or your preference); two centered on each rail, 1/2 of the rails' length apart. (ie, if the rail is 48" long, place the eyelets 24" apart). Looking at the back of the frame, label them (A),(B),(C),(D),(E),(F),(G),and (H) going clockwise from the top rail's left eyelet.
Then thread the wire as described below. Do not tie the wire at the eyelets -- lace it so it is free to slide through them.

Start threading wire from eyelet (A);
Straight down to (F) on the bottom rail;
Up/left to (G) on the left rail;
Straight up to (H) on the same rail;
Horizontally across the frame to (C) on the right rail -- make sure this segment is above the vertical segments (A)/(F) and (B)/(E);
Straight down to (D) on the same rail;
Down/left to (E) on the bottom rail;
Straight up to (B) on the top rail.
Terminate the first wire end at (A);
Working your way around the lacing, pull each wire segment tight. On large frames, place turnbuckles on the vertical wire segments (A)/(F) and (B)/(E) for future tensioning.
Terminate the second wire end at (B).
Hang the fame from the horizontal wire segment stretching from (H) across to (C), using anchors in at least two points on the wall.

Comments:
1. I suggest stainless steel wire. If you can't find wire heavy enough, run two or three strands together, lightly twisted.
2. If the wood is soft or splintery, I suggest using 4-hole Super Steel hangers for the 8 eyelets.
3. To limit deflection of the frame rails, always fill the frame completely. The final fillers should be cut to fit snugly within the frame, or the frame may be braced with slats at the rails' centers.
4. The reason wire is laced through the eyelets, and not tied at each one, is that the wire must be able to slide freely through them. This feature enables the wire to equalize tension on all four rails.
5. A long run of wire such as required by this method will surely stretch. Plan to re-tension the wire soon after hanging.

[Nigel Nobody]

Les,
Those are good solutions, but still have some drawbacks, including the time taken to install them. Some of those methods don't fully eliminate bending of the frame legs.
Any wire/cord hanging system is not as good, IMHO, as two point hanging hardware.

[guzzijim]

My ‘Framers Eye’ thread seems to be gaining momentum!!
I was particularly interested in the photos posted my Emeraldart from Cork which seems to meet Roboframers approval of mechanical braces.
Much of what I make and sell is framed with Minerva moulding, so this sagging thing can be a problem, I believe I have found another cheap and easy way of bracing.
To date I have been using Artback rather than MDF for backing, Holroyd (Glasgow) recently started selling a hard backing board with barrier facing.
This new board is not corrugated like Artback it is solid and stiff, it would be easy to cut bracing strips from off-cuts, staple them to the frame, perhaps a couple of spots of superglue to fix them to the backing (stop them flapping), end result should resemble Emeraldart’s, what do think?
I intend to switch permanently to this board as it’s roughly the same thickness as mount board and saves me resetting the blade depth on the Fletcher mount cutter (90deg.)

[Roboframer]

I was particularly interested in the photos posted my Emeraldart from Cork which seems to meet Roboframers approval of mechanical braces.
Much of what I make and sell is framed with Minerva moulding, so this sagging thing can be a problem

But I did say, early on, that prevention is better than cure and you are saying that you know that much of what you sell is problematic, but so far you've been selling it with the problem.

I wil not provide a frame that will not cut it, but if for some reason I had to I'd probably opt for screwing a solid backing board to the frame. If I didn't have to but wanted to, then I think the extra materials and labour would probably cost more than the moulding that didn't require them.

[Nigel Nobody]

Holroyd (Glasgow) recently started selling a hard backing board with barrier facing.
This new board is not corrugated like Artback it is solid and stiff, it would be easy to cut bracing strips from off-cuts, staple them to the frame, perhaps a couple of spots of superglue to fix them to the backing (stop them flapping), end result should resemble Emeraldart’s, what do think?

I agree with Robo! If you are making all of your frames from plastic and are needing to provide extra stability, it seems like a lot of time and effort wasted, when there are wooden mouldings that don't need the reinforcement. One or two frames every now and then maybe, but not all!

I can't imagine something made as a backing board, that's the same thickness as mount/matboard, stuck to the back of the frame with spots of superglue being as satisfactory as Emeraldart's solution, no matter how hard I try!

Frankly, I openly discourage customers from using mouldings that are not substantial enough to be self supporting. More than that, I don't allow them to do it. Well, that's really a lie because I think I have done two or three in 25 years! Can't remember the last occasion.

[guzzijim]

[quote Even ash will bow in the middle if not braced.[/quote]

So what's the anti-polymer all about ?

[guzzijim]

[quote Even ash will bow in the middle if not braced.

I'm not saying all my frames are sagging, I started the thread by talking about panos.

The time involved in putting two braces made of the same material as the backing board across the back of the frame must be about 5% or less of the time involved in making and assembling a frame.

My priority is to sell my pictures framed at reasonable prices, in my opinion the frame and mount should enhance the picture and not be dominant.
Minerva are excellent value for money, and as yet I'm still to find another moulding from any manufacturer (wood or plastic) that matches M113-51 Gunmetal Gloss,

[Nigel Nobody]

in my opinion the frame and mount should enhance the picture and not be dominant.

There would be very few framers in the entire world who wasn't of the same opinion. It would be self defeating to have any other opinion. Mind you, there are framers who have that opinion, but aren't always able to succeed!

I have no idea what M113-51 Gunmetal Gloss looks like, but if that suits your purpose, I understand that completely.

[Roboframer]

The time involved in putting two braces made of the same material as the backing board across the back of the frame must be about 5% or less of the time involved in making and assembling a frame

If the backing board is made from sturdy enough stuff to make a brace from, that's fine (no idea why you'd want a backing board like that though)

perhaps a couple of spots of superglue to fix them to the backing (stop them flapping)

But this backing board obviously is not sturdy enough - if braces 'flap' they're not doing much bracing.

[fineedge]

I use a substantial amount of synthetic moulding some up to 15 cm in width and which can also bow on a frame 2.5 metres long. Whenever I get to a hardware shop or supermarket, I collect the hard plastic packing tape (looks like woven fibres) that is used around big cardboard boxes. I brace the synthetics with this stuff by taping the ends (to prevent splitting ) and stapling with two or three 8 or 10mm heavy duty staples. Two or three strands across keeps the frame pretty sturdy. I normally cover the whole back of the frame with a paper dust cover not just tape so my applied straps are hidden from view .

[guzzijim]

I collect the hard plastic packing tape (looks like woven fibres) that is used around big cardboard boxes. I brace the synthetics with this stuff by taping the ends (to prevent splitting ) and stapling with two or three 8 or 10mm heavy duty staples. Two or three strands across keeps the frame pretty sturdy. I normally cover the whole back of the frame with a paper dust cover not just tape so my applied straps are hidden from view .

That sounds like a good idea for sagging pano's, what type of paper are you using for the dust cover, anything special ?

[guzzijim]

But this backing board obviously is not sturdy enough - if braces 'flap' they're not doing much bracing.

Even if I used mdf instead of compressed card backing, 40mm strips of mdf used as braces would still require something to hold them to the backing!
Ok you could get away without tacking them, it would make no difference to the bracing strength, it’s just a more finished job.
My finished braced frame would look much the same as Emerald Arts (photo) just a lighter version.
My frame is not 45” x 28”, requiring aluminium bars and corner braces, it’s a 32” x 12” pano, heavy bars wood or metal would be overkill don’t you think?

[Roboframer]

Well, I'm no expert on bracing frames for reasons explained, I'm just saying what makes sense to me and seems to make sense to some others too, who may or may not be talking from more experience than me.

I brace plenty of stretcher bars though; don't think I'd use strips of frame backing for those, any sort of frame backing. I use the exact same thing as the outer stretcher; nothing weaker - makes sense to me to apply the same principles to a frame.

If I was just bracing the corners I suppose a nice sturdy triangle of plywood or even suitable-thickness MDF would do though, but there's a lot of strength in a triangle and not much in a narrow strip of the same material running straight from one side to the opposite side.

I used to be seriously in to Mecanno and at by the age of 7 had knocked up quite a few swing/lift bridges, cranes, etc - don't remember any of hem being braced by the bendy plates, bar in the corners with the triangular ones.

[guzzijim]

and not much in a narrow strip of the same material running straight from one side to the opposite side.

Robo we’re never going to convince each other, so Amen ! Just wish I was still at college could have gone into the Building Construction Test Lab and tested breaking strain of backing board, could have given you some hard facts then..
Regards.

[guzzijim]

I have no idea what M113-51 Gunmetal Gloss looks like, but if that suits your purpose, I understand that completely.

http://www.lionpic.co.uk/product/23mm-M ... 11853.aspx

Does not really show the very bright chrome finish.
Cons. surface marks easily.
Can't find anything else like this in wood or polymer, maybe there's an aluminium, but then I'd have to use a chop service.

[fineedge]

what type of paper are you using for the dust cover, anything special ?

not special no - 65kg roll about 1500mm wide brown paper but heavier gauge than normal stuff in shops - buy it from packaging company

[Nigel Nobody]

I guess the problem with this 'bracing' issue for 'bendy' mouldings is that there are a number of different 'bracing' aspects including prevention of:
tension across the frame,
compression across the frame,
frame legs bending or sagging so the back is not flat.

The question is, what aspects are you attempting to remedy and what methods do you think will work for each of those aspects?

Fitting braces directly across the back of a frame won't necessarily keep the back of the legs flat. Extra rigidity need to be added. I have added 45mm x 6mm flat sections, glued and nailed/stapled to the back of 65mm x 20mm plastic mouldings to make them just as rigid as a wooden moulding of similar size. This not only keeps the legs flat but prevents bending in the other two dimensions as well. No cross bracing used.

[sim.on]

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Just thought I'd show a very large print framed in Minerva I did recently. The quality of the print justified a 'proper' wood frame but the customer didn't want to pay the 200 pounds quoted elsewhere (I assume it was for wood) and I did it for 79. Before I braced it if I picked it up by the top of the 2 inch wide frame the bow was frightening. The other photo is of the back of a smaller frame showing a thin strip of aluminium cut from a beer can under the tape to offer support.