Framers Eye

[guzzijim]

That ‘framers eye’ came to the fore today when my wife and I were in one of our local tea-shops.
Framers Eye usually occurs when viewing other people’s work, on this occasion it was my own!!! The frame in question was a panoramic, about 32 x 12 inches.
The Minera frame (M107-32) seemed to be bowing out top and bottom on the long horizontal sides, at first I thought it was an optical illusion, especially as my wife could not see it, but a side view confirmed it .
I suppose I could change the frame for a much wider wood moulding, but it wouldn’t go with the picture, is there an accepted way of bracing frames to stop this happening

[Roboframer]

Probably - but prevention is better than cure and it sounds like the moulding simply wasn't up to the size - unless it's been hung in a dodgy manner, say with tight cord and one nail.

[guzzijim]

Was cord from side to side and one picture hook,moulding is reasonably wide, how should it be?

[Roboframer]

There's a link/diagram somewhere, but from memory, say the frame weighed 10 lbs and you had tight cord/wire and one hanging point, there would be 100lbs of pressure on each D ring (or whatever) which can cause the sides to bow inwards and the top and bottom to bow out.

On all but the smallest/lightest of frames, two wall hooks should be used and the angle of the cord between them and the D rings (etc) should be at least 60 degrees.

(Edit) Here you go ....

wire%20angles[1].jpg

[Nigel Nobody]

I wonder how thin the moulding is on the picture? Sometimes customers want to use mouldings that are very thin and just not practical. In those cases I try to envourage them to use a moulding that is more solid and has enough rigidity, not to bend.

All that tension on wire/cords/whatever you use can be prevented by using 'Beehive Hangers' or 'Wireless Magic Marker Hangers' or 'Wallbuddies' or 'Hook-Ups', which are all two point hanging systems.

John did you mean this diagram?


(No point having the diagram in this thread twice so I deleted mine!)

[Roboframer]

I stole the diagram from a post of yours from the other day Ormond

I tried the FACTS website first Here's the relevant page, all the info but no diagrams, well not for me, I just get red 'x' s.

Anyway, to simplify things, having tight wire/cord and one nail is like trying to carry/lift a heavy weight with your arm straight out to one side.

[TONY.W]

Why don"t you try Putting the D rings to form a triangle ie 1 on each side and then a D ring in the middle of the bottom length of the frame.Then thread the cord or wire through and tie it off.
When the picture is then hung the weight is then spread.
The weight of the picture will pull on the cord ( or wire) and pull on the bottom length of moulding stopping it from bowing on the bottom.

[guzzijim]

Problem solved, thanks all, have printed and saved for future reference.

I saw the diagram in an earlier posting and thought nothing more about it, Ah! that’s for big frames thought I !!

Minerva moulding is quite flexible even the larger ones, so combined with a panoramic print and one hanging point it seems obvious now.

Thanks again.

[Not your average framer]

Ah! You mentioned the all important word, "Panoramic"! So the top and bottom lengths of moulding are not only quite long, but being a polymer moulding, they lack the stiffness of a wooden moulding.

There is a very simple solution to this problem, which I learnt from another posting on this very same forum quite some time ago. The method is to add one extra D ring at the centre of the top moulding length and two extra D rings suitably positioned on the bottom moulding length.

The frame is then strung through the two normally positioned D rings and continues through the other thus forming a W shape. Thus the weight of the framed picture when hanging on the wall, is transfered by the resulting tension in the cord to pulling the top and bottom moulding length inwards, thereby correcting any tendancy to bow outwards.

I regularly use this method on long thin panoramic school photos when framed with skinny mouldings. It's a great technique! If I remember correctly, the original posting includes a photo to show how to do it. Perhaps someone will be able to locate the original thread and post a link to it!

[prospero]

I have sometimes fixed a couple of strips of MDF across the middle, screwed to the long sides. They don't need to be very wide and it's suprising how much rigidity it adds. Only really practical on mouldings >1/2". Thw wire arrangement is a good method, but it doesn't stop people picking up a frame by the top rail.

[Roboframer]

It certainly doesn't, plus you have to get it from your workbench to your storage area, from your storage area to the counter - and the customer has to get it from the counter to the car and from the car to the wall it's to be hung on.

By providing these hanging methods (cord/wire in diamond or W shapes), which are solutions with no technical back-up that I've also never seen from any names that I trust, you are simply admitting that you have provided a fortnight frame* - I'd simply, and happily refuse the work.

Skinny/weak mouldings are not for large frames, panoramic or not, perspex or glass. Aluminium could be an option but the chances are the customer won't like the cost, a shallow 12mm black wood cushion may cost 30p per ft but a 12mm aluminium moulding (which would be deeper) would cost at least £1 per foot and still not be up to the job anyway.

The customer is always right, for sure, but in some cases being right means s/he exits stage left - someone will do what they want and not give a stuff about the consequences - they just provided what someone asked for, just like there are car mechanics that will cut and shunt cars or wind back the mileage, difference is they know they are doing wrong and it's a sad fact that some framers don't - especially when they can cover their arses with a link to a topic like this.

* Too Weak

[Nigel Nobody]

All that tension on wire/cords/whatever you use can be prevented by using 'Beehive Hangers' or 'Wireless Magic Marker Hangers' or 'Wallbuddies' or 'Hook-Ups', which are all two point hanging systems.

I forgot to say that all of these systems have two pieces of hardware that are fixed to the frame. They do not require any wire/cord.
The frame hangs from those two points so that there is no additional stress on the sides, top or bottom legs of the frame.

Beehive hangers here: http://www.beehivehangers.com/
Wireless Magic Marker Hangers here: http://www.pp-mfg.com/instructions.pdf

[sim.on]

I recently completed a 3ft x 2ft + (landscape) frame in a gorgeous 2 inch wide bronze minerva polymer moulding. Absolutely no way whatsoever would I let it go without struts on the back supporting the frame and having the customer hang it on two hooks or screws using the strap hangers (though ultimately it's up to them). Will even put a sticker on the back advising this. Haven't handed it back yet but I will provide two screws with large flanges (washers actually) that will just pass through the hanger loops which hopefully they will use. To prevent bowing, on frames up to around A2 with about 30mm polymer I get an empty beer can, puncture it with a pair of scissors and cut four 1 x 1.5 inch or so strips and neatly araldite them across the back of the moulding to the backboard on each of the four sides halfway. I then tape as normal and the only sign they are there is a discreet rectangular outline under the tape. I even tell the customer about it and why. Works a treat and can be sliced with a knife if the back ever has to come off. This also works well to correct thin frames that have already bowed. Still I suppose the sensible thing would be to only work with wood!

[guzzijim]

It certainly doesn't, plus you have to get it from your workbench to your storage area, from your storage area to the counter - and the customer has to get it from the counter to the car and from the car to the wall it's to be hung on.

By providing these hanging methods (cord/wire in diamond or W shapes), which are solutions with no technical back-up that I've also never seen from any names that I trust, you are simply admitting that you have provided a fortnight frame* - I'd simply, and happily refuse the work.

Skinny/weak mouldings are not for large frames, panoramic or not, perspex or glass. Aluminium could be an option but the chances are the customer won't like the cost, a shallow 12mm black wood cushion may cost 30p per ft but a 12mm aluminium moulding (which would be deeper) would cost at least £1 per foot and still not be up to the job anyway.



* Too Weak

Not saying you’re right or wrong, but do you views sort of equate too, trussed roof structures are inferior to traditional roof construction methods or spaced framed cars are inferior to pressed panel, or lastly bridges with rigid sides versus lattice framed.
I guess braces across the back could remind you of MFI self assembly furniture, but they work and people buy it or should that be past tense ?

Ps “chances are the customer won't like the cost, a shallow 12mm black wood cushion may cost 30p per ft ”.
Minerva is cheaper than wood admittedly , the one I used was about 35mm wide.

[emeraldart]

DSCF2931.JPG (114.56 KiB) Viewed 5391 times

Small.jpg (64.33 KiB) Viewed 5391 times

Here is an example of how I braced this frame. The frame is about 45" x 28" and the moulding is flat ash. It was taped over afterwards. Even ash will bow in the middle if not braced.

[Roboframer]

Not saying you’re right or wrong, but do you views sort of equate too, trussed roof structures are inferior to traditional roof construction methods or spaced framed cars are inferior to pressed panel, or lastly bridges with rigid sides versus lattice framed.
I guess braces across the back could remind you of MFI self assembly furniture, but they work and people buy it or should that be past tense ?

No problem with mechanical braces like in the post above.

[blokman]

Just finding my way in the framing world, it is reassuring to see some of the ideas floated in this topic, I think one of the major problems for so called "newbies" is the fear of doing something wrong or unacceptable in the framing trade.

To create a good design, pleasing to the eye has got to be the ultimate aim, but clearly it is sometimes necessary to improvise in order to produce a finished product that satisfies both aesthetic and practical aims.

Looking at the ideas mentioned above gives me peace of mind that there is clearly no right and wrong way in respect of frame design, other than sound practice as regards conservation techniques etc....

[prospero]

Another method is the sub-frame. If someone actually wants the minimal look (rather than the minimal cost. ). But a subframe might consist of 3" x 1/2" PSE pine. This sort of wood section is not stocked by moulding wholesalers so you have to go to a DIY shed and pay though the nose. The nice un-knotty stuff is pricey. A lot dearer than the 1/2" cushion that goes round the outside. Then there is the problem with depth. The glass/mounting/backing is going to swallow the rebate in the outer moulding. Then you have 1/2" sticking out the back that you have the prob of attaching to the outer frame and also being able to see it from the side. So you need a deeper moulding, which cuts down your choices and hikes the price up.

I have to explain to customers all the time that the moulding may be cheap, but to use it on their particular frame will work out more expensive than picking a bigger one.

[Nigel Nobody]

there is clearly no right and wrong way in respect of frame design,

I'm not too sure that there are no 'wrong ways'! I've seen quite a few!

[framemaker]

I've used the methods Prospero has already mentioned a few times before.
1 or 2 pieces of MDF or timber screwed top and bottom with a metal bracket, to prevent bowing or pulling apart when someone carries the frame carelessly.

Also the subframe is a good solution, personally I don't see a problem in using a thin, deep frame on a relatively large picture, but not every frame is suitable because of the depth.