how would you price the cost of cleaning a 42" x 30" approx canvass 150 years old will need to remove varnish and fix some flaking what do you think is a good price to charge
graham
oil painting cleaning pricing
oil painting cleaning pricing
work with local artists and believe in promoting them
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Mary Case GCF
Hi Graham. 
Are you experienced at restoration? That fact that you are asking what to charge whould seem to suggest not very. How confident are you that you can do the job?
Pardon me if I appear to be talking down to you a touch, but this type of work is a job for an expert. Especially if the painting is valuable. Every painting is different: what works on one will not work on another and you can soon find yourself in a world of grief.
I wouldn't call myself a expert by any means, but I do know enough to know when to leave well alone when I am out of my depth.
Hourly rate for expert resoration. £150+, I'd say.
Are you experienced at restoration? That fact that you are asking what to charge whould seem to suggest not very. How confident are you that you can do the job?
Pardon me if I appear to be talking down to you a touch, but this type of work is a job for an expert. Especially if the painting is valuable. Every painting is different: what works on one will not work on another and you can soon find yourself in a world of grief.
I wouldn't call myself a expert by any means, but I do know enough to know when to leave well alone when I am out of my depth.
Hourly rate for expert resoration. £150+, I'd say.
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Not your average framer
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Re: oil painting cleaning pricing
Sorry, but any question as vague as this, ain't gonna get a meaningful answer. You can't quote for a job you've never seen and inspected. I don't know anyone who would even think of quoting a price, without a detailed inspection and drawing up a list of what they expected to do.ncprints wrote:how would you price the cost of cleaning a 42" x 30" approx canvass 150 years old will need to remove varnish and fix some flaking what do you think is a good price to charge
graham
In particular the implications of your comment "fix some flaking" should have led you to determine the entent of the restoration required.
Sorry to be blunt, but there ain't any easy ways to truthfully answer this one!
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Not your average framer
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As some may remember from an earlier thread, from time to time I take on restoration and repairs of items for local companies acting for insurance companies. As a result of this I have a proforma for describing the condition of items presented for quotation, specifying my restorative actions, risk assessment, limiting my liablity and quoting my price.
To help me with these tasks I have a list of list of descriptive terms relating to condition of works of art. I hope this may be useful to some of us and perhaps generally thought provoking too!
1 Abrasions: Loss of media and/or the support, (caused by rubbing or scraping).
2 Accretions: Deposits of dirt, dust, grime, or extraneous matter, etc., on the surface of the artwork which alter the appearance of the artist’s work.
3 Acidic auxiliary support: Rear support on which paper art is mounted, made of wood, wood pulp or other acidic materials, which because of it’s acid content will damage art paper.
4 Acid Burn: Alteration to a work on paper (often resembling burned paper) caused by acidic materials containing lignin in proximity or contact to the art.
5 Acidic Mount: The border between the picture and the frame made of wood pulp paper or other acidic material, which because of it’s acid content will cause damage to art on paper.
6 Adhered to Backboard: Artwork adhered to a stiff board behind it; usually with glue or self adhesive tape.
7 Adhesive / Tape Residue: Remains of adhesive left by previous application of adhesive or tape, etc; generally due to inept mounting of the artwork.
8 Auxiliary Support: An additional support attached to the original or primary support, usually to add strength and/or stability.
9 Cleavage: Separation and lifting of media (gouache, paint, etc.). From the support layer (paper, board, etc.).
10 Cockling & Buckling: A wrinkle or broad system of wrinkles without creasing.
11 Crease: A line, mark, surface damage, or flatness irregularity caused by folding or wrinkling
12 Cut: Straight separation in support caused by sharp slicing action.
13 Delamination: Separation of the layer(s) of the support and/or media layer(s); (often accompanied by flaking).
14 Dimple: Any small, hollow place.
15 Dirt/Grime: Dirt of any kind that has accumulated on the surface (accretion); may also be embedded into the support (soiling).
16 Discoloration: Changes of hues, often uneven and visually detrimental to the prevailing tones.
17 Dog-ear: A folded down corner.
18 Draw: Stretch by tension.
19 Edge Damage: Any damage in and confined to the edge of a sheet of paper; usually small tears.
20 Embrittlement: Support has become perceptibly fragile to the point of snapping, crumbling or breaking.
21 Faded: Losses of brightness or brilliance of the colour(s).
22 Fill: Material used to replace missing areas of loss.
23 Flaking: Media and/or support layers to dislodging from the support.
24 Flyspeck: Small dark spots of fly excretion
25 Foxing: Reddish-brown stains believed to be caused by metal particles in the paper being attacked by micro-organisms; foxing previously thought to be a variety of mould or mildew.
26 Frass: Powdery residue left by insects after attacking a sheet of paper or board.
27 Friable: Insufficient binding to adhere the media to the sheet or board (support).
28 Fugitive: Unstable colours that have or will diminish or suffuse into adjacent areas when exposed to light, moisture or solvents.
29 Gouge: A groove, indentation or cavity resulting from an object pressing or cutting into the surface without completely penetrating the support.
30 Handling Dents: Shallow creases (usually in or near the edges) created by rough handling.
31 Hinge Damage: Damage due to improper application of hinges to a sheet. Self adhesives may bleed through causing a permanent stain; excessive mounting adhesives may also create permanent compression of paper fibres.
32 Hole: Open or hollow loss in the support.
33 Imbedded: A variant of embedded
34 Inclusion: A foreign body enclosed within the mass of the paper fibres.
35 Infestation: Over-run and invaded; with insects, bacteria or other micro-organisms such as mould, although it can also pertain to other pests.
36 Inherent Defect: Existing condition that causes deterioration of an object as a result of its original construction.
37 Insect Damage: Numerous species of insects feed upon materials in paper borne works, inflicting damage, which can be massive, resulting in partial or total destruction.
38 Insecure: A damaged work which maybe in the process of deterioration due to weakening of materials or due to weakness in structure or construction; work may sustain further damage if moved or handled without immediate attention.
39 Liquid Stain: Stain created by an unidentified liquid.
40 Loss: Missing area in one or more layers of image; most frequently the result of flaking, abrasion, tearing, skinning, insect attack, etc.
41 Mat stain or burn: Darkened area caused by acidic conditions related to the use of improper matting materials. See "Acidic Mat". Mat Stain or Mat burn.
42 Mould/Mildew: Any fungi growth, which invades organic surfaces and produces enzymes that dissolve, stain, or degrade the host material.
43 Photo Oxidation: Degradation of paper and/or media by light. In media this results in fading; in paper it results in destruction of the molecular structure of the cellulose paper fibre and can result, in extreme cases, in the total collapse and loss of the sheet.
44 Physical Degradation: Degeneration of the overall structure.
45 Planar Structural Deformation: Deformation of the support whereby it is no longer flat or in place. (See Cockling and Buckling).
46 Powdering: Failure of binding media to adhere pigments to the support, causing media to become powdery, chalky or crumbly.
47 Previous Restoration: A restoration performed prior to the current examination.
48 Puncture: Hole caused by impact or penetration.
49 Scratch: Loss in the media, which may extend into the support caused by marking the surface with something sharp.
50 Support: Material providing the foundation for the image. Called the “primary support,” when a secondary support is present.
51 Shell mark: Crease in the pattern of a half circle; generally the result of a blow or impact when the object is rolled.
52 Skinning: Excessive intervention resulting in losses of the original media; also called “over-cleaning”, or “excessive cleaning”.
53 Smudge: Smear or blur caused by dirt, soot or ink.
54 Soiling: Dirt driven deep into the surface.
55 Split: A rupture or tear running along the support, usually caused by stress.
56 Stain: A discoloration, usually darkening where the media and/or support layer has been penetrated.
58 Tape Stain: Staining caused by migration of the adhesive from self-adhesive tape into paper fibres.
59 Tear: A rupture in the support layer as a result of tension.
60 Tenting: Delaminating of paint or gouache along cracks where the delaminated media layers lift upward into a pattern resembling the peaked tops of tents.
61 Thinning: Abrasion of paper or board support creating areas, which are thinner than the surrounding support.
62 Tide line: The dark line created by drying liquid, at the farthest point of liquid migration in the paper or board. The line itself is dirt transported by the liquid; the dirt embeds itself deeply into the paper fibres becoming tenacious and difficult to remove.
63 Degree: The comparative extent of damage described by the following adjectives:
Negligible: insignificant damage that may not need immediate attention, but needs to be monitored.
Slight: damage slightly more noticeable than “negligible”; should be monitored by a conservator.
Minor: existing condition, which is relatively unimportant; generally does not involve risk of loss; should be monitored by a conservator.
Moderate: Damage is noticeable and of middle or increasing severity of size; not serious, (should be monitored or corrected by a conservator).
Marked: readily identified damage, often with distinctive features and requires remediation by a conservator.
Major: The stability of the work is in question due to damage or condition. Requires immediate attention to prevent further damage or loss.
Extreme: Most severe damage condition is very advanced. The work is insecure, no longer stable and at great risk.
To help me with these tasks I have a list of list of descriptive terms relating to condition of works of art. I hope this may be useful to some of us and perhaps generally thought provoking too!
1 Abrasions: Loss of media and/or the support, (caused by rubbing or scraping).
2 Accretions: Deposits of dirt, dust, grime, or extraneous matter, etc., on the surface of the artwork which alter the appearance of the artist’s work.
3 Acidic auxiliary support: Rear support on which paper art is mounted, made of wood, wood pulp or other acidic materials, which because of it’s acid content will damage art paper.
4 Acid Burn: Alteration to a work on paper (often resembling burned paper) caused by acidic materials containing lignin in proximity or contact to the art.
5 Acidic Mount: The border between the picture and the frame made of wood pulp paper or other acidic material, which because of it’s acid content will cause damage to art on paper.
6 Adhered to Backboard: Artwork adhered to a stiff board behind it; usually with glue or self adhesive tape.
7 Adhesive / Tape Residue: Remains of adhesive left by previous application of adhesive or tape, etc; generally due to inept mounting of the artwork.
8 Auxiliary Support: An additional support attached to the original or primary support, usually to add strength and/or stability.
9 Cleavage: Separation and lifting of media (gouache, paint, etc.). From the support layer (paper, board, etc.).
10 Cockling & Buckling: A wrinkle or broad system of wrinkles without creasing.
11 Crease: A line, mark, surface damage, or flatness irregularity caused by folding or wrinkling
12 Cut: Straight separation in support caused by sharp slicing action.
13 Delamination: Separation of the layer(s) of the support and/or media layer(s); (often accompanied by flaking).
14 Dimple: Any small, hollow place.
15 Dirt/Grime: Dirt of any kind that has accumulated on the surface (accretion); may also be embedded into the support (soiling).
16 Discoloration: Changes of hues, often uneven and visually detrimental to the prevailing tones.
17 Dog-ear: A folded down corner.
18 Draw: Stretch by tension.
19 Edge Damage: Any damage in and confined to the edge of a sheet of paper; usually small tears.
20 Embrittlement: Support has become perceptibly fragile to the point of snapping, crumbling or breaking.
21 Faded: Losses of brightness or brilliance of the colour(s).
22 Fill: Material used to replace missing areas of loss.
23 Flaking: Media and/or support layers to dislodging from the support.
24 Flyspeck: Small dark spots of fly excretion
25 Foxing: Reddish-brown stains believed to be caused by metal particles in the paper being attacked by micro-organisms; foxing previously thought to be a variety of mould or mildew.
26 Frass: Powdery residue left by insects after attacking a sheet of paper or board.
27 Friable: Insufficient binding to adhere the media to the sheet or board (support).
28 Fugitive: Unstable colours that have or will diminish or suffuse into adjacent areas when exposed to light, moisture or solvents.
29 Gouge: A groove, indentation or cavity resulting from an object pressing or cutting into the surface without completely penetrating the support.
30 Handling Dents: Shallow creases (usually in or near the edges) created by rough handling.
31 Hinge Damage: Damage due to improper application of hinges to a sheet. Self adhesives may bleed through causing a permanent stain; excessive mounting adhesives may also create permanent compression of paper fibres.
32 Hole: Open or hollow loss in the support.
33 Imbedded: A variant of embedded
34 Inclusion: A foreign body enclosed within the mass of the paper fibres.
35 Infestation: Over-run and invaded; with insects, bacteria or other micro-organisms such as mould, although it can also pertain to other pests.
36 Inherent Defect: Existing condition that causes deterioration of an object as a result of its original construction.
37 Insect Damage: Numerous species of insects feed upon materials in paper borne works, inflicting damage, which can be massive, resulting in partial or total destruction.
38 Insecure: A damaged work which maybe in the process of deterioration due to weakening of materials or due to weakness in structure or construction; work may sustain further damage if moved or handled without immediate attention.
39 Liquid Stain: Stain created by an unidentified liquid.
40 Loss: Missing area in one or more layers of image; most frequently the result of flaking, abrasion, tearing, skinning, insect attack, etc.
41 Mat stain or burn: Darkened area caused by acidic conditions related to the use of improper matting materials. See "Acidic Mat". Mat Stain or Mat burn.
42 Mould/Mildew: Any fungi growth, which invades organic surfaces and produces enzymes that dissolve, stain, or degrade the host material.
43 Photo Oxidation: Degradation of paper and/or media by light. In media this results in fading; in paper it results in destruction of the molecular structure of the cellulose paper fibre and can result, in extreme cases, in the total collapse and loss of the sheet.
44 Physical Degradation: Degeneration of the overall structure.
45 Planar Structural Deformation: Deformation of the support whereby it is no longer flat or in place. (See Cockling and Buckling).
46 Powdering: Failure of binding media to adhere pigments to the support, causing media to become powdery, chalky or crumbly.
47 Previous Restoration: A restoration performed prior to the current examination.
48 Puncture: Hole caused by impact or penetration.
49 Scratch: Loss in the media, which may extend into the support caused by marking the surface with something sharp.
50 Support: Material providing the foundation for the image. Called the “primary support,” when a secondary support is present.
51 Shell mark: Crease in the pattern of a half circle; generally the result of a blow or impact when the object is rolled.
52 Skinning: Excessive intervention resulting in losses of the original media; also called “over-cleaning”, or “excessive cleaning”.
53 Smudge: Smear or blur caused by dirt, soot or ink.
54 Soiling: Dirt driven deep into the surface.
55 Split: A rupture or tear running along the support, usually caused by stress.
56 Stain: A discoloration, usually darkening where the media and/or support layer has been penetrated.
58 Tape Stain: Staining caused by migration of the adhesive from self-adhesive tape into paper fibres.
59 Tear: A rupture in the support layer as a result of tension.
60 Tenting: Delaminating of paint or gouache along cracks where the delaminated media layers lift upward into a pattern resembling the peaked tops of tents.
61 Thinning: Abrasion of paper or board support creating areas, which are thinner than the surrounding support.
62 Tide line: The dark line created by drying liquid, at the farthest point of liquid migration in the paper or board. The line itself is dirt transported by the liquid; the dirt embeds itself deeply into the paper fibres becoming tenacious and difficult to remove.
63 Degree: The comparative extent of damage described by the following adjectives:
Negligible: insignificant damage that may not need immediate attention, but needs to be monitored.
Slight: damage slightly more noticeable than “negligible”; should be monitored by a conservator.
Minor: existing condition, which is relatively unimportant; generally does not involve risk of loss; should be monitored by a conservator.
Moderate: Damage is noticeable and of middle or increasing severity of size; not serious, (should be monitored or corrected by a conservator).
Marked: readily identified damage, often with distinctive features and requires remediation by a conservator.
Major: The stability of the work is in question due to damage or condition. Requires immediate attention to prevent further damage or loss.
Extreme: Most severe damage condition is very advanced. The work is insecure, no longer stable and at great risk.
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Roboframer
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Not your average framer
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- Location: Glorious Devon
Hi John,Roboframer wrote:'kin 'ell Mark - please tell me you didn't just type all that out!
Not quite, it's been cut and pasted from something I've already got on the system. In fact is a document I'm still working on and fine tuning. It's based on the glossary for a condition reporting form used by a friend who used to deal in antique prints and documents. He's now retired, but I've got his glossary.
There's a bit of a tip here. The descriptions for each term enable you to work out the exact nature of each and every defect when choosing the right term and this should help to lead you to knowing what is the correct course of remedial action. That is assuming that you have the necessary know how!
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Not your average framer
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A lot of people use similar lists of terms, presumably a lot of them come from the same source. I've been trying to reduce it down to the minimum number of words to make it more manageable.
That's the simple bit of my system. The proforma's enable me to specify not only the size and location of each and every defect, but whether or not the defect is compatible with the quoted circumstances of the insurance claim. It also allows me breakdown my restoration costs right down to the level of each individual defect and to prepare by list of materials to order for the job.
There's quite a lot to it!
That's the simple bit of my system. The proforma's enable me to specify not only the size and location of each and every defect, but whether or not the defect is compatible with the quoted circumstances of the insurance claim. It also allows me breakdown my restoration costs right down to the level of each individual defect and to prepare by list of materials to order for the job.
There's quite a lot to it!
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osgood
Mark,
That is a most comprehensive list! Awesome!
You obviously know more about restoration than most of use do, so I hope your list discourages framers from attempting something that they know diddly squat about!
I would like to print out a copy of that list to keep on hand for customers who resist having their art restored by a qualified restorer, if you don't mind me using it.
Luckily I have a restorer a couple of hours away from me!
That is a most comprehensive list! Awesome!
You obviously know more about restoration than most of use do, so I hope your list discourages framers from attempting something that they know diddly squat about!
I would like to print out a copy of that list to keep on hand for customers who resist having their art restored by a qualified restorer, if you don't mind me using it.
Luckily I have a restorer a couple of hours away from me!
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Not your average framer
- Posts: 11019
- Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
- Location: Devon, U.K.
- Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
- Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
- Location: Glorious Devon
Hi Ormond,
Please feel free to copy it. I can't say that it is necessarily exhaustive, in so far as it covers every term in use and I've no idea who originally drew it up, or how up to date it is with modern day teaching.
WRT to your comments about framers attempting cleaning or restoration. Well, there are many who do, but to attempt to do so without the necessary knowledge, equipment and materials on hand is asking for trouble.
I would point out that just removing the varnish is often more involved than most people might think. Especially as over time the chemical properties of varnish can become modified by exposure to light and become insoluble in most normally used removal agents. You then start getting into far more risky chemicals and combinations of chemicals and have to know how to neutralise and remove any residue.
Also varnishes can often include transparent colour in the form of a glaze, which has been employed by the artist as part of the original work and this has to be accurately reinstated when re-varnishing. Colour is often added to varnishes to hide the true condition of the painting underneath and can get the untrained into a lot of trouble with the owner of the work.
There are techniques employed when inspecting the work which can help when preparing your risk assessment and presenting your conclusions to the owner. There are always risks, which the customer needs to be informed about and any restorer needs to be able to think ahead and know how to meet them.
Restorers come in all different levels of competance. There are people working for national galleries, who even will remove all the original pigment from an unsuitable canvas or other form of support and re-attach it to a completely new canvas to ensure the longevity of the work. At the other end there are those who do just the basics, but each needs to know their limits and how to deal with problems which come along.
In short, there are responsibilities with this kind of work, beyond that which many are aware of.
Please feel free to copy it. I can't say that it is necessarily exhaustive, in so far as it covers every term in use and I've no idea who originally drew it up, or how up to date it is with modern day teaching.
WRT to your comments about framers attempting cleaning or restoration. Well, there are many who do, but to attempt to do so without the necessary knowledge, equipment and materials on hand is asking for trouble.
I would point out that just removing the varnish is often more involved than most people might think. Especially as over time the chemical properties of varnish can become modified by exposure to light and become insoluble in most normally used removal agents. You then start getting into far more risky chemicals and combinations of chemicals and have to know how to neutralise and remove any residue.
Also varnishes can often include transparent colour in the form of a glaze, which has been employed by the artist as part of the original work and this has to be accurately reinstated when re-varnishing. Colour is often added to varnishes to hide the true condition of the painting underneath and can get the untrained into a lot of trouble with the owner of the work.
There are techniques employed when inspecting the work which can help when preparing your risk assessment and presenting your conclusions to the owner. There are always risks, which the customer needs to be informed about and any restorer needs to be able to think ahead and know how to meet them.
Restorers come in all different levels of competance. There are people working for national galleries, who even will remove all the original pigment from an unsuitable canvas or other form of support and re-attach it to a completely new canvas to ensure the longevity of the work. At the other end there are those who do just the basics, but each needs to know their limits and how to deal with problems which come along.
In short, there are responsibilities with this kind of work, beyond that which many are aware of.
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iantheframer
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The Institute of Conservation (ICON) has a register of conservators working in all disciplines and is a great way of locating a conservator in your area
http://www.icon.org.uk/
Ian
http://www.icon.org.uk/
Ian
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MITREMAN
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Cleaning of oil paintings
Hi Not your average framer,
I agree with your comments I to take on small restoration and repairs of items for insurance companies and private customers.
Your proforma is excellent, Your points about specifying your restorative actions, risk assessment, limiting your liablity and quoting a price should be well observed by all framers.
Only take on what you can safely do with the knowledge you have.
"As a rule of thumb, don't touch what you don't know" Pass it to the experts, take it to them, ask them for a written quotation and you can still add a percentage with out the worry and risk, always use a trained conservator.
Always limit the risk or you could be
MITREMAN
I agree with your comments I to take on small restoration and repairs of items for insurance companies and private customers.
Your proforma is excellent, Your points about specifying your restorative actions, risk assessment, limiting your liablity and quoting a price should be well observed by all framers.
Only take on what you can safely do with the knowledge you have.
"As a rule of thumb, don't touch what you don't know" Pass it to the experts, take it to them, ask them for a written quotation and you can still add a percentage with out the worry and risk, always use a trained conservator.
Always limit the risk or you could be
MITREMAN
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Not your average framer
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- Location: Glorious Devon
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Roboframer
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osgood
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kev@frames
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