Advice please - pricing bespoke

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Taraxacum
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Advice please - pricing bespoke

Post by Taraxacum »

Hello,

I am very new to framing - which is why I’m struggling to price some of my more bespoke customised frames (teaching myself completely in a bubble) as I know I’m spending way too much time (learning curve etc) to get them up to standard, and I don’t have anything to compare to. I don’t want to be unfair with my pricing just because I’m not up to speed.

I was wondering if the more experienced framers out there could tell me how much time they would probably spend to have achieved the same frame, and about how much they would charge. (I can work out myself based on materials etc but the thing I’m struggling to guess on is time.) I’d like to charge a fair price.

The job in hand was to showcase this miniature painting and its old frame. I have constructed it from scratch, hand varnished and waxed to match tones in old frame, hand mixed/colour matched the paint on the wooden backing mount which I made out of raw timber, and hand mixed/painted waxed the fillet.. screwed in the back through the holes on the old frame that were already there, so minimal interruption to the original piece.. 400mm w x 300 h.

Really appreciate any tips, also if you’d do anything with the frame differently, I’d really value any feedback. Im learning from manuals, books, YouTube, and reading through this Forum.

Many thanks again,

Alex
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Justintime
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Re: Advice please - pricing bespoke

Post by Justintime »

Firstly it looks great. There is obviously a lot of time involved in your current processes. Personally I would substitute your timber backing with painted 5mm MDF which will prevent the mitres showing through. The MDF could have a mountboard glued to the front, saving you that part of the painting. That timber backing looks very precarious to me. I would use flat canvas offsets to join the two together rather than points(points would probably be fine with mdf though), they just don't look secure enough to me like that.
As far as time goes, break down your processes into a list and decide how long each process should actually take eg stain 5 mins, wax and buff 5 mins so 10 mins at £x/hour. I went through exactly the same dilemma when I started and set a standard hand painting charge (according to size) for the time I thought it SHOULD take, based on layers and finishes. I would suggest that at this point you need to make sure that you are making enough money on the job. Later on you will start to make money on the time.
Justin George GCF(APF)
Insta: georgetheframer
Not your average framer
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Re: Advice please - pricing bespoke

Post by Not your average framer »

I'm in much the same position. I make quite a lot of hand finished and stacked moulding frames and there is not a lot of opportunity to compare what I do with others locally who are doing the same thing. There's a lot more of what I do going on in and around London and a few other places. These are places where many customers have a lot more disposable income than in my own location. The result of much of this means that I cannot charge London prices, where I am located, so you have to adjust your prices accordingly. This is probably not really what you wanted to hear! I am located in a rural area and this is not very helpful, when it comes to getting people to pay top money, for hand crafted things. Building a reputation will help to get better prices, but that takes a long time also as you start to increase your prices, some customers will give you a hard time about it. Producing really stunning work, does not necessarily guarantee the best prices and for me I have found that it has been necessary to develop a particular business model.

That business model may tend to be something which is largely individual to you. My own business model certainly is very much individual to me and it is not particularly based up on anything all that scientific. I'm a bit old fashioned in my thinking and don't necessarily think in straight lines. A lot of how I do things is very individual to me and catering for what I perceive as the natural market on my door step. I am based in an old fashioned town, full of old fashioned buildings and I cater for lots of old fashioned and traditional stuff. I'm not much interested in competing which other more general framers in the area. They have their own particular markets and I have mine. I like to avoid producing things which are too much the same as what everyome else is doing. I am very niche market oriented and this is a deliberate intention. If a customer sees something which they like in my shop window, they are going to have a very hard time finding anything similar elsewhare and almost certainly not at a price which is going to be saving them much money.

Do I encouter much price resistance, Yes I do! It's the nature of making nice things at a price that reflects that you make things which are special. As you can probably already understand there is a balance between the price which you can charge for nice things and how viable they are to make at a sensible cost. As a result of this, I have to be very careful about my material costs and still be able to produce really distinctive, top qualiy items and it's not easy! My emphasis on hand finished framng is a very inportant part of how I market myself to customers and what gets me most of my business. In the past I have been visited by many customers from more affluent areas in the country, but I have not been trading properly since my stroke of almost two and a half years ago. To some degree, I have largely disappeared from off of their radar and I need to rebuild a certain amount of this source of business, if I can.

A lot of you own business potential and therefore the prices which you can charge will naturally reflect, what your local customer base are willing to pay. Much of your knowledge of this will need to be based up on you own experience and this will take time to get a clear understanding of the things you will need to kow. Lots of framing businesses describe thenslves as bespoke and may I suggest that it might be helpful for you to be able to dstinguish your business between what you can offer your customers and what other so called bespoke framers are able to offer. Don't be just another framers, be distinctive and different. It's what I do and it makes a big difference. Almost none of my framing samples match anything which most other framers have to offer! It's a smaller market, but it's a very distinct and separate niche part of the market. Not everything which I do is necessarily more expensive. I have my own less expensive options too and I know how to sell these as well.

If you like the idea of being a bit different, then you don't want to be too shy about it. Being different is also about being special and that means that what you make is special too! I have my own hand finished range of off the shelf mouldings, they need to be quick, simple and easy to do. Excessive working time, or material cost will kill the viability of such mouldings, but the big advantage is that they look better than much of the factory finished mouldings a they are not available else where at all. Big fancy framing shops in high foot fall locations have high overheads and need to divert sales income to cover these overheads, they also need to work harder than me to maintain enough volume of sales to keep their businesses viable. I don't want to work that hard. I don't have those high overheads and I don't have to beat anyone else's prices. I quote an honest price and that's it, take it, or leave it. There are those who tell me that it's a buyer's market, but I think that cheap is usually not good quality and rather poor value for money.

Think long and hard about what you want your business model to be. It defines everything ele and think carefully about your work vs life balance as well. I do this because I enjoy what I am doing! I think that is very important!
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Taraxacum
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Re: Advice please - pricing bespoke

Post by Taraxacum »

Thank you to you both,

Gosh- such useful tips and feed back!!

Really sound advice, and things to think about.
I think where I can add value is definitely in the bespoke area of things (transferable perhaps from my background as a botanical artist and ceramics) rather than a small ‘factory’ setting - so I need to make that work as a business.

Thanks also for the practical advise - great alternative solutions, I really appreciate your time. This is definitely a learning curve!

Alex
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Re: Advice please - pricing bespoke

Post by vintage frames »

I'd be thinking of a price around £150 or a bit more maybe.

Nice work.
Affordable Gilding Course for Professional Framers-https://www.dermotmcardle.co.uk/
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Not your average framer
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Re: Advice please - pricing bespoke

Post by Not your average framer »

One of the most difficult things about pricing is confidence. Customers are more likely to accept your prices if you are confident about it.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Not your average framer
Posts: 11013
Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Devon, U.K.
Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
Location: Glorious Devon

Re: Advice please - pricing bespoke

Post by Not your average framer »

Not everyone's cost of materials, or labour time is not going to be the same. Those with mature businesses will know various things that you won't necessarily know! Shaving money off of your material and labour cost's is often the name of the game! Picture framing is not a very transparent business when trying to understand a competitors basis for costing a job. Do you know how many hours of labour went in to that job? Also what your material costs where including wastage? There are times when a framers will ask for a price check on the forum and they will get a range of different prices. This does not necessarily tend you what you should be charging, but only how you compare with a range of other framer's throughout the country. There a little bit of guesswork to this game and not all of us play it exactly the same way. I'm a bit of an odd ball for a variety of reasons, I'm very focussed up on the price of materials and I'm pretty good on doing a job for the lowest material costs, not everyone has the same focus. Like it, or not, we all focus on different things!

Others will be more focussed on something else. We all make it pay according to our own ways of doing things. Not using factory finished expensive mouldings which are exclusive to one manufacturer, or supplier is quite a big thing with me. Sure I like classy looking designer type mouldings, but I don't like paying excessive prices for them. Who's making the money? Is it mostly my supplier, or am I getting a decent level of profit too. I don't work for my suppliers, I work for me! I have a separate collection of off cuts and I like to look at what I am getting for my money. Are some of my suppliers competing with me, for a share of my profits? The fact is that to overcome price resistance from our customers, we sometimes have to do a deal and it's our profits which take the hit. Is it a nice moulding? Sure, but who takes the hit if something goes wrong on a job and we have to buy another piece of moulding. Where do I get my designer moulding from? I make them myself and that's how I control who makes the profit. Bigger framing businesses, just fork out the money and they can afford it. The small guy is often on a hiding to nothing. Do I want to play this game? No I do not!

What is more I also don't need to! Go back to the 1960's and 1970's and lots of class framers where creating designer type sylish moulding profiles, buy making stack moulding frames and they really knew what they were doing. Today, throw a little bit of hand finishing in to the mix and it can be a real big game changer. I make lots of stacked mouldng frames. do it right and that can be where the money is. Will people pay more when they can see that they are getting more for their money? Believe me they will and they do! Will I be a little flexible on price to get the deal? Quite often, but I say how much! Stacked mouldings are a niche market and it's up to me to control which mouldings go in to my stacked moulding frames. This also has a bearing up on how to control the profits. Is there enough profit to allow me to give a small discount to secure the sale? Yes, there is and my stacked moulding frames are excellent quality as well. I get a better deal and so does the customer as well. Do my competitor get to compete with my prices for these stacked moulding frames? Certainly not! How I make these is a closely guarded secret.

Now these stacked moulding frames are really something to call bespoke. They are a mixture of all sorts! I even slice a bit of one moulding to add to what I am creating using my band saw. This is truely customer creativity. Everyone likes something special and everyone knows that special things come at a price. O.k., we live in difficult times, but everyone still understand that special things still come at a price! Who says it a buyer market? No it is not,if you can supply special things and that's the name of the game! It takes time to learn how to create stacked mouldings which just have that "I must have it" look, but it's worth a bit of practicing to get there. Really stunning one off's are a major part of the plan! How many people know how to do that? Not many and it takes time to get there. For me it started by learning the value of being different, then it moved on to knowing the difference between making things that were different and making things that were both different and desireable. There is a difference, but it is not that easily defined my most people!

It makes all the difference in the world to know how to design and make these things, for me it all started with buying a bandsaw and then experimenting with ideas and making things. I slice up bits of mouldings and mix and match. it does need to be something with impact and that just looks right! It's then that pricing becomes another ball game.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
fusionframer
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Re: Advice please - pricing bespoke

Post by fusionframer »

My price would be around £200 but that includes VAT, so around £160-170. Like already suggested, i would use mdf for backing, either 6mm or 9mm.

I remember when i first started, i was often apologetic about the price when speaking with customers. It is all about confidence and not worrying if people walk away if they think you are too expensive. In fact, if you don't have anyone deciding you are too expensive, your prices are definitely too cheap.

At the moment in particular, you will also need to regularly keep an eye on costs and review prices. Glass costs have soared recently and timber prices have been going up too.

Last October, i quoted for a job to make 15 windows (i have joinery business). The customer had to postpone job, but came back to me in April. I said i would need to requote and i added £1500 onto job which was the increase in material cost. If you haven't reviewed prices for a few months, your profit for each frame will almost certainly decreased.

Good luck

Nick
www.fusionframing.co.uk

Never trust a dog with orange eyebrows.
Justintime
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Re: Advice please - pricing bespoke

Post by Justintime »

I can recommend pricing software like frameR by framiac. You can download price lists from all the major suppliers, including Rose and Hollis barewoods. You can add all your individual processes and times taken to do each size. Work out your hourly rate by inputting all your annual overheads, expenses and desired income and it will price the job accordingly, by the minute. It has preset profit margins which can be adjusted later.
To give you another perspective from Mark's, who repeatedly talks about these being "difficult times", we are in a boom time here, we've never been this busy before! The only difficulty we have is with stock levels at our suppliers and keeping up with the workload. Our prices are set intentionally high for our area and our software updates material costs as and when there is a price rise.
When I started a few years ago, I intended to concentrate on hand finishing but also wanted to find out what my customer base wanted. Five years in, our hand finishing is of a high quality but still fairly basic. We mainly hand paint from colour cards or mix our own and stain and wax. 75% of our business is now in prefinished mouldings. I began by only stocking samples of what I liked and as my customer base has grown, I have been able to grow my sample range in line with my customers tastes, from basic to high end. The moulding is only one part of the framing job. As a small frame shop, there is a finite number of pieces I can complete in a reasonable time frame. By concentrating on using better quality materials, best practices, upselling specialist glass and building on design skills, I'm able to offer a higher end, higher priced product with a higher return and I'm building a customer base that is prepared to pay. None of it is easy, but if you enjoy the challenge, the constant learning and developing and you can make a living then what's not to love?
Back to pricing... Here's a good article written by Mark from Framiac software, worth a read.
http://www.pricingaframe.com/
I can also recommend looking at the Fine Art Trade Guild and the Larson Juhl scholarship. Its given me everything I needed to get my business off the ground.
Justin George GCF(APF)
Insta: georgetheframer
Taraxacum
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Re: Advice please - pricing bespoke

Post by Taraxacum »

Thank you so much for all your help and taking the time to comment! I’m blown away by the support, and it is so extremely helpful and useful to read your collective angles and suggestions.


Alex
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