The Framers Forum

Hello all,

I have just introduced myself on the other section and have lots of thoughts running round my little brain today.

I am a new framer, at a bit of a crossroads in how to set up my business. I am aiming to be only small volume to start with, as I have a part-time 'bread and butter' job, and want to start and expand slowly.

I am not advertising yet but have done a couple of 'favour' jobs as word is trickling out, and I am getting a few more enquiries recently. My main struggle on these is how to price a job up. I am nervous of over-pricing and not getting the work, or coming in too low and ultimately making very little money.

I can calculate the cost of the materials to me, but then I don't know what is best practice on what to quote to the customer.

Whilst I am such small numbers I need to order on a 'per job' basis, but that means I am either paying delivery charges or fuel cost if I collect (approx £10). Adding that onto the cost seems a lot. Also, if I need to buy a sheet of mountboard for one person, this would only use a small amount of the sheet so I don't know how that works. Similarly, do I charge the proportion of the cost of a sheet of backing board , rather than the cost of the whole sheet that I have to pay initially? If I had a stockpile, I wouldn't be buying individual sheets, but that could be a little way off. The same with things like hanging sundries where individually they would be pennies, but I need to buy a box to get started. Should I be making a profit from the material costs?

How do I factor in my time, bearing in mind I would be working slower than someone more experienced (and quite possibly likely to make mistakes and need to start again)? How do I allow for additional background costs which are not attributed to a specific job - eg website hosting, insurances, any new equipment etc.

I said my brain is getting a little frazzled didn't I!

I am booked onto some new business workshops soon which will really help, but I would be very interested to know if there are general rules you all tend to work to?

Thank you for reading my ramblings, any and all comments will be very much appreciated.

All of these thoughts are the sort we all had when starting up. That's why I can't recommend enough getting good advice and training from the outset. It will help avoid some of the pitfalls that new businesses fall into. I'm firmly of the belief that pricing and business advice should be an integral part of any training offered. Good training is an investment!

Like many framers we use a pricing software, but we didn't for the first few years of operating and that is a big regret. Even with the software though, it is the personalised tweaks you do to it, to suit your own business, that can make a huge difference between break even and profit. As JKX mentioned on your introduction post, seeing framers working and getting their experienced advice can be a massive help.

I agree with JKX and Tudor Rose.
Apart from the more formal training offered by the FATG, find a good framer within travel distance.
The FATG can help with that.
Then contact them and offer to sweep their floor, make tea and coffee, run messages and just be allowed to stand there for a few hours watching them work.

Get yourself some training! Far from being expensive, it will save you such a lot of money and wasted time trying to re-invent the wheel.

Yup, training! As for the cost, you have to think of it as investing in yourself. If you know that this is something you really want to do, then retraining is simply a part of your business start-up costs, that comes out of the imaginary start-up budget we all had at the beginning!

Thank you, it is reassuring to know that most people had these wobbles at the start!

As fortune would have it, one of the business workshops I have just seen advertised this lunchtime is 'Getting Your Pricing Right ' so I have signed up. It is a generic workshop for all business start-ups, but will start to give me a glimpse of general pricing strategies I hope.

I didn't realise there is such a thing as pricing software, so that is interesting to know. All sounds far more professional than my current squiggles with many crossings out. Pricing was one thing I really struggled on when I used to make soft-furnishings. I was always too scared of over-pricing and putting people off, and ended up pretty much working for nothing for a whole lot of hassle. But that was just a little side-hustle to give me something to do in the evenings once the kids were in bed, so it didn't really matter. This time I want to make a proper go of things.

Training, yes definitely!

In the meantime, I have been given a photo to mount and frame and they want a price. I think this one will be 'mates rates' and a beer.

This post reminds me of something a very successful Swedish exporter taught me early on.

If your prices are too low , you will never know
If they are to high, you will soon find out

In Swedish it rhymes so makes a bigger impression

Training - one of the Uk's best trainers told me. If getting trained, ask the trainer to come to you and teach you on your machines. It will cost more , but saves money in the long run. If you have a Jyden, a Logan mount cutter and an Alfa underpinner - the trainer will train you on these and may also help service, or fix them if needed. If you go to the trainer chances are he will have a Morso, a Keencut and an Alfa, and that will not be much help if you have none of these.

Keith, I've heard you say this before, about having trainers come to you and I have to strongly disagree. Framing training for me was far less about how to use the individual machines and far more about the techniques of framing. I was shown how to use equipment, sure, but I only learnt how to use them through practicing everyday.
If it's the choice between paying for a trainer's travel expenses, hotel stay and dinner out as part of the training cost or driving to them and enjoying a hotel and dinner out, I'm travelling! I'm sure it doesn't have the same excitement attached to it for an international jet setter such as yourself, but I've only started experiencing hotels since I started framing.
I'm sure that I have learnt much more from the experience of visiting a top framer's premises for training. Seeing first hand their workshop and design space layout, their equipment and tool choices from years of honing their skills. Their shelves full off products not commonly found on the Lions website. Their homemade dust extraction systems etc etc. The various trips I have made and still make to framers and framer trainers is absolutely invaluable in my opinion.
There's nothing more inspiring than visiting someone else's workspace.

Agreed! If you need training on a machine and whoever you bought it from couldn't or wouldn't do it (e.g. maybe two whole days installation/training comes with a new CMC and I gave the same when I sold mine too!) then if you can't do it on youtube or this forum, on line in other words, then there are engineers who can help with that. Many machines work on the same principles anyway and none of them can, for example, lace needlework.

How's Pete these days anyway?

There is a big difference from being a business owner, with all the skills required to manage what there is in the business and that of a craftsman. Basic business skills are required such as:
-developing a business strategy
-setting up a record keeping system
-calculating you costs of goods sole
-calculating what your fixed costs are
-how much profit you want
-pricing your product
-marketing
-manufacturing skills
-support sources (lawyer, accountant, banker)

Replying to Justintime's post Feb 17th
I like your reply
I wish to make it clear, what I wrote were NOT my opinions, but those of a very well respected trainer, who does not wish to post his reply here
So instead, I'm posting his reply below, as he made some valid comments, based on his years of training both at his workshop and at the newbies place.
===================================================================================================================

There are often 2 sides to any question. Going to train at their workshop is good and yes you can train on the customers machines and in many cases calibrate their machinery. On the other hand a student framer visiting the trainers workshop also has the opportunity to discover how a framing shop works, both valid but I have in the past recommended the trainer working at the students workshop where improvements can be made,
I remember travelling to an island off the coast of Scotland to help a framer and used the first hour explaining how his machines worked. He said it was worth the cost just for that information because he had not realised the potential of some of his equipment and the problems.

Those are my thoughts and as you know I don’t comment on any forum.
=======================================================================================================================
I hope I've not offended him, but felt his views and opinions are worth sharing.

JFeig wrote: ↑Sat 18 Feb, 2023 3:27 am There is a big difference from being a business owner, with all the skills required to manage what there is in the business and that of a craftsman. Basic business skills are required such as:
-developing a business strategy
-setting up a record keeping system
-calculating you costs of goods sole
-calculating what your fixed costs are
-how much profit you want
-pricing your product
-marketing
-manufacturing skills
-support sources (lawyer, accountant, banker)

Very good point Jerome. You can be the most skilled craftsman but that will not make you a successful business owner. I would say that being a business owner is as big a learning curve as learning the framing side.

In terms of pricing, writing a business plan for the first year will help. Include all your running costs, then you will have a better idea of profit levels you need to make.

Costs include insurance, including public liability, website running costs, rent (depending if working from home or not), accounting (quickbooks is my choice) plus accountant if needed, lighting and heating. There will be other costs too, but that will give you a start.

In terms of pricing, i always charged for a full sheet of mountboard or backing board when pricing a job. If you then have off cuts from other jobs, you still price for a full sheet. Ok, a lot of the time, customers will use a few standard sheets, off whites, cream, black etc, but you need to cover the fact they will choose purple or orange (happened to me!).

Similarly, with mouldings, if you need to lengths of moulding, but will be left with 3/4 if a length, how do you know when it will be needed for another job. I have mouldings i bought years ago still sitting around and i bet most framers will too.

A good idea would be to a search on here for price check. I would think you will see a fair few and could look up your material cost to see what profits are being charged. Obviously, some will be out of date as materials will have risen, but it would be a useful exercise.

Good luck

Nick

That's a great point about business plans. I thought they were just for when you needed a loan from the bank. When I needed to apply for the DWP working tax credits in year 2, they requested one. It was really helpful for me personally to fill out a template. It gave me priceless insights into the business I was building, how far along I was and what I needed to focus one more to get there.
I would say that pricing software like Framiac etc is essential to ensure that you actually start to make a profit.
Not only will your material costs be automatically updated, you'll also be able to calculate an hourly rate based on your running costs and required salary too. It's a no-brainer.

fusionframer wrote: ↑Sun 19 Feb, 2023 11:03 am Similarly, with mouldings, if you need to lengths of moulding, but will be left with 3/4 if a length, how do you know when it will be needed for another job. I have mouldings i bought years ago still sitting around and i bet most framers will too.

Yep, and what's more, you might think that you can use the old length in conjunction with a new length, but the colour might be slightly different, or the grain/texture, and even the depths might not match. Been there

Having said that, I've just had success on two jobs for the same customer, both using offcuts of discontinued mouldings that I've had in stock for years. For one of the jobs, I had a few very small offcuts, plus a medium size length that had warped into a pronounced banana shape The job was two very small paintings, so the small offcuts were fine for six of the sides, and then I just needed to cut into the banana to find a straight enough length to do the other two sides, job done

In my case, 40 years ago, I had the accounting/business education and woodworking hand skills since school.

I was burned out from corporate retail(internal audit and systems design) after 10 years and wanted to do something compatible with my artist wife. Hence I went into custom picture framing. Yes, I have set up business systems for others to operate small businesses.

Another vote for Framiac. Best thing I did business-wise and wish I’d done it from the start. The good thing about the system is that you can get a free basic package and then pay for more capacity as your business grows.