Nightmare on ash st

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Thu 18 Oct, 2007 7:59 pm

There I am, happily staining a length of ash in different colours for some chevrons. I'm using up the little plastic sample bottles you can get to try the stains out with - the ones you have to poke something through a plastic seal to open.

Blacks on, Purple's on, Ok next colour...... red. Squeeze some out, wipe on, squeeze some more out.... hang on, nothings coming out. Okay, squeeze a little harder.......

SPLAT!

The hole in the end decides to open up again, very suddenly and very widely. Red stain all over my newly made worktop, and all over me! It looked like I'd been visited by Freddy Kruger......... I'm just glad it washes out of beards & skin.

Now I've got to spend some time cleaning things - if it will come off them! Looks like I've lost half a length of ash, but nothing else crucial was splattered.

Lesson learned - make a hole that can't close up again, and if it does stop coming out, don't squeeze harder!

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Thu 18 Oct, 2007 8:31 pm

And after I clean up, what do I find? This little cap that fits in upside down in the top of the bottle. Not only does it have a screwcap, it has an internal stopper that I could have pulled out, if I had known that that was what you were supposed to do!

Dagnabbit!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Thu 18 Oct, 2007 8:43 pm

What a pain in the ash.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Thu 18 Oct, 2007 9:39 pm

A perfectly good reason not to stain your own mouldings! As John said, "a pain in the ash!"
I admire you guys who do that, but it's not for me.
I don't have time to get all my framing done using pre finished mouldings let alone waste three quarters of every day hand finishing.......sheesh, time must be cheap up there in the 'Motherland" or you must be easily amused!

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Thu 18 Oct, 2007 11:36 pm

Been there. Done that. And for obvious reasons, discarded the T-shirt....

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Fri 19 Oct, 2007 6:39 pm

The "butchers shop" effect.

Its one of those moments where the only suitable thing to do is stand back, and mutter "bugger".

trouble is, as one who also has the t-shirt, bitter miserable experience knows that lightning can strike in the same place twice - my latest was stamping hard to get the lid back on a five litre can of white primer.....

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Fri 19 Oct, 2007 7:38 pm

My greatest workshop disaster to date came from dropping a near-full, 2 litre bottle of Diet Coke: the bottle split after hitting the deck.

Imagine how big a numpty I felt chasing round the floor after it: the blasted thing was jet-propelled ...

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Fri 19 Oct, 2007 8:16 pm

osgood wrote:A perfectly good reason not to stain your own mouldings! As John said, "a pain in the ash!"
I admire you guys who do that, but it's not for me.

Ormond, you have no soul! It may not be worth it in terms of time/money, but there is that luvverly warmth you get knowing you've produced something that looks at least as good, if not better than the major manufacturers.

I think it's called job satisfaction.

Not your average framer · Fri 19 Oct, 2007 9:54 pm

Spit wrote:It may not be worth it in terms of time/money

Hi Steve,

I think if that was true, no one would buy plain wood mouldings at all. Perhaps you are under estimating the what the market will pay!

As I used to repair antique furniture for the professional antiques trade some time ago, I know how to make wood look stunning (and old or beaten-up too!). It takes a lot of practice, know how and often "home-made" woodstains, made from "genuinely transparent" pigments, or even certain artist colours based on transparent pigments, so as to avoid that dull, lifeless look which you get with normal woodstains.

Why not start checking out some artist colours based on transparent pigments. Be careful, as a lot of suppliers make no distiction in their information between transparent, transluscent and semi-opaque or semi-transparent (which is just an opaque pigment rendered semi-opaque by dispersal in a transparent medium).

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Fri 19 Oct, 2007 9:57 pm

Spit wrote: It may not be worth it in terms of time/money,

It most certainly is!

I'm not talking elaborate - just basic stains and/or waxes.

Plainwoods are cheap, and from some suppliers, very cheap, and from some of those suppliers that give 20% off 100 ft - very VERY cheap!

I can get a two inch reverse ash with two grooves on the outside edge (Simons - Ash 11) for about 50 pence per foot - it's really well finished (smooth) very consistent in profile and quality batch to batch and if you finish it after joining - seamless. The exact same profile, finished in just a stain and wax from another supplier costs £1:50 per foot.

You can do batches if you like, but I usually do it to order - grab a stick - soak a soft cloth with, say Colron 'American Walnut' rub it in (3 mins tops) let it dry - get on with other stuff.

Then wax it - Liberon neutral, Liberon Liming - whatever .... rub it in good and hard then add a further nice thick layer (another 3 mins tops) - let it dry - get on with other stuff.

Buff it - another 3 mins.

Then take your pick - class it the same as the other supplier's £1:50 per foot - or maybe more - it's hand finished - or, as I do - just double the list price before discount.

I use plainwoods finished in this way for ready mades as well as to order, and for ready mades I'll price them as above, less a fitting charge, less 20% for 'quantity' That price still ends up higher than the made-to-order price (i.e. for something fitted) for what I actually paid for the moulding - for nine minutes extra work.

In fact if it's ready mades it will be far, far less than 9 mins per length because I'll be staining/waxing 200 ft at a time at least.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Fri 19 Oct, 2007 10:03 pm

John,
What about the time to get out all the gear, cover everything within 500 yards, then clean everything up and put it all away again???

You will never convince me it is a good plan when you can buy mouldings for the same cost as your combined 50p plus the times you have given. Not on your Nelly, ever!!!

I have been there and done it many years ago back in the days when I made custom made period style furniture. It is false economy in my opinion.

Not your average framer · Fri 19 Oct, 2007 10:20 pm

Ormond,

It's a pity that you don't have some of the suppliers we have in the UK, because you might be able to see why high quality hand-finished framing is much bigger over here that you might think. Some really up-market framers in the trendy parts of London do nothing else, it's very expensive and looks fantastic.

I can name three mouldings companies which are mainly or even totally all plain wood mouldings. A lot of these with a little effort can quickly become something very exclusive and designer. Customers buy this sort of thing because it's not "run of the mill" and because if you know how to do it, it just looks "stunning".

Some mouldings will take really impressive mark-ups without customers even flinching. This kind of work is a significant and growing part of my business and it's well worth doing!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Fri 19 Oct, 2007 10:25 pm

osgood wrote:John,
What about the time to get out all the gear, cover everything within 500 yards, then clean everything up and put it all away again???

You will never convince me it is a good plan when you can buy mouldings for the same cost as your combined 50p plus the times you have given. Not on your Nelly, ever!!!

Well, this is good, this is VERY good and I hope all framers think the same, esp those within spitting distance of lil ole moi.

I have an 'area' for this - I do a lot of it - if I bought the same moulding pre-finished I would be earning far less profit.

Nothing to get out, nothing to cover up, nothing to put away - just lids to be removed - caps to be unscrewed - disposable latex gloves ...... ooooh ... latex gloves - this won't hurt Miss Jones, trust me, I'm a doctor ..... er, where was I.

Then there's waste - what if I finish after joining? (OK - you can add a bit of sanding into the equation there - but the finished thing still cost me a third of the price plus - what 10 minutes?) ..... oh - also bear in mind I am RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOBOFRAAAAAAAMER

It's a tough job but someone's gotta do it - NOOOBODY does the bits between as fast as me.

Can you smell rubber?

Nurse ..... NURSE ..... !

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Fri 19 Oct, 2007 10:32 pm

Ohshit, I've started a war. Now's not a good time to mention 'hobbyist' is it?

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Fri 19 Oct, 2007 10:33 pm

Spit wrote:I think it's called job satisfaction.

Because I know so little about hand-finishing, I sometimes kick myself for volunteering to take on custom finishes - it doesn't really pay to do it, especially as it can take me quite a while to work out how to get the effect I am after. But then I see the end result, and the delight on the customer's face....

Makes it worthwhile for the right type of job! Does no harm whatsoever to the reputation, either, "going that extra mile"....

Overall, I think that what reduction in profit (read "loss") I might incur on certain jobs comes back to me in the long run through repeat and increased referral business.

That said, in order to run my business effectively and profitably, I concur with Ormond that from a productivity perspective, finished mouldings are the way to go unless you can establish a niche reputation for handfinished work, and have a customer base that is willing to pay realistic labour costs (latter is certainly not easy to find in my neck of the woods).

Post by **prospero** » Sat 20 Oct, 2007 12:51 am

Hand finished frames aren't everbodies thing, that's for sure.

It depends a lot on the nature of the job. Most of the stuff I frame nowadays is original art, mostly oils, which demands a high-quality frame, individually suited to the painting. Fact is, the choice of pre-finished mouldings on the market to meet my needs is woefully inadequte. Hand finishing gives almost infinite possibilities. Artists can have their own individual frame designs. The same finish can be applied to any moulding profile, which gives a nice thematic feel to an exhibition. Plus, if any get damaged they can easily be repaired.

Obviously the same citeria would not apply to a lot of jobs, although it is suprising what people are willing to spend on framing familly photos or even certificates.

Another factor is the amount of stock you have to carry. Once upon a time I had £30,000+ worth of finished mouldings lying about. Nowadays I keep about £5000 worth as a core stock. Wastage and offcuts have damatically reduced. Moulding suppliers often get overstocked with all sorts of weird moulding that has suddenly gone out of fashion and are keen to shift it at any price. Some of these have really useful profiles and are great if they are easy to re-finish.

Like everything else in life, it's horses for courses.

Not your average framer · Sat 20 Oct, 2007 7:43 am

Hi Prospero,

Yes, I agree with what you are saying. In my own case, often while doing a hand finished frame I will make a corner sample, just for reference and either display it on my mouldings board or just leave it somewhere that customers can see it. If it suits what the customer wants, it gets ordered.

Customers don't initially know that it is hand finished, they just know that they like it! Many come back with repeat orders and it's a good way of promoting your business, because their friends often notice your framing and take note!

It pays to have a nice range of mouldings which your competitors ain't got!

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Sat 20 Oct, 2007 8:02 am

Not your average framer wrote:It pays to have a nice range of mouldings which your competitors ain't got!

Now that's the reason I'm doing it! Giving the customer the ability to step away from the standard and get something that they feel is almost unique to them.

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Sat 20 Oct, 2007 8:30 am

osgood wrote:John,
What about the time to get out all the gear, cover everything within 500 yards, then clean everything up and put it all away again???

Doesn't need to be a problem. Part of my workbench is covered with craft paper anyway -- it just pulls from the roll straight onto the bench so, after the job, I just pull off another metre.

I put the stains into plastic drink dispenser cups that I throw in the bin after use. Bought by the 1,000 on eBay the cost is negligeable.

I put the stain on with a disposable foam brush. Bought in bulk from the US (via eBay) they cost a few pence each.

Final polish or wipe-over to remove excess stain is given with a J-cloth - that, and the disponsable gloves - are the expensive bits but, what the heck, the customer pays in the end.

Time to clear away then is generally about 20 seconds -- the waste bin is next to the bench.

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Sat 20 Oct, 2007 8:31 am

Oh, forgot to say, it's a great way of allowing customers to choose frames that match their furniture.