Glass Mounting a Papyrus

[Bagel Framer]

Hi,

Apolgies is this has been covered already, but I've come from a customer visit tonight and in addition to the two big frames they want quoting for, they also have a 24" x 13" papyrus that they want to glass mount on the front and on the back too so it's sandwiched between the two pieces of glass (they saw similar in a museum).

I can find out the answers, but unfortunately I didn't ask them if it needs hanging on a wall or a mantlepiece though I suspect it's the latter. I also don't know how thick the glass is to be, but to look any good it would have to be 10mm thick, 20mm total - inline with another glass frame they showed me. This frame also had a U shaped wooden base to it which they weren't adverse to having for the papyrus.

Anyway, I've never quoted for anything like this or would know how much to charge.

Has anyone ever done such work with papyrus? I don't think I could prepare or cut the glass but if nothing else it would be a good quoting exercise.

Any hints/tips would be greatly received.

Thanks.

[Not your average framer]

I also don't know how thick the glass is to be, but to look any good it would have to be 10mm thick, 20mm total - inline with another glass frame they showed me. This frame also had a U shaped wooden base to it which they weren't adverse to having for the papyrus.

I think it's more likely to be normal 2mm glass with spacers, if you can't see the spacers or the edges or the pieces of glass and all internal shetts of glass are clean, without smears or dust, etc., then it is not possible to see that it is not all one piece of glass.

It's a lot easier than you may think.

O.K., You need a suitable deep moulding, then a nice wide flat gold slip about 1" wide, which goes in the frame and in front of the glass (not behind as more usual). Then two pieces of glass separated by a black spacer, (the inside of the rebate should be painted black and the inside of the slip shold be painted gold to match the front).

Now the papyrus is postioned onto the third piece of glass after a very light dusting of spraymount or similar on the back of the papyrus (not onto the glass). It's not conservation, but at least a very light dusting of spraymount can't be seen.

Then you fill up the rear of the frame to match the front and cunningly fix the rear slip in place so that it is not obvious how you did it. I usually pin it in through the sides and then fill and finish over the pins!

[Bagel Framer]

Thanks NYAF, I think I may have mislead or not explained their requirement properly. They don't want a frame round the glass at all, effectively the papyrus is sandwiched between two pieces of glass.

If it did need something round it, they showed me what I can only describe as a U frame, ie. one full side and two diddy/stubby bits therefore making a U shape. Maybe there's a proper name for this?

[Grahame Case]

i can hear Vivian Kistler in my head "we are framers, not magicians"


this sounds like its out of the realm of most picture framers, without accurate images of the offending article they want to match it'd be pretty difficult to best advise you.

we've framed plenty of double sided banknotes to stand up n a desk or mantlepiece but its been a requirement to have a frame to hold it all together.

bonding sheets of glass together to protect the artwork in a safe enough manner is just asking for trouble

maybe Les (realhotglass) can give a few pointers.

but i'd be prepared to charge heavily for the labour involved in something like this, start by adding around 3 times the labour ofa normal job and keep adding from there if you feel it is getting more complex.

often the mistake of charging too little for the most tricky jobs is a common one that we are all guilty of.

[osgood]

With no frame to hold this package together, I think you might have to engage the services of Harry Potter! Surely your customer can afford that!

Grahame,
That's one of my favourite quotes! I have been known to say that to a customer on one or two occasions like Bagel's.

[realhotglass]

Thanks for the lead in Graham, happy to provide a few ideas.

Ok, firstly, this could be a very easy job, and relatively inexpensive for all concerned.

You can certainly have a double glass sandwich made up, with enough air inside to ensure no squashing, BUT such a design would not prevent the article from touching the sides, so it should only be used long term for non important items.

The pics below show 2 x 10mm glass with high grade FEP polished edges, and a spacer of glass (in this case 2mm for photos, but can be any thickness as needed) UV glued to provide the gap.
This can be hidden in the plinth depth, and UV glue is virtually indiscernible anyway.





The glass could be laminated to stop UV light, or just left as is in plain glass (or Low Iron water white, etc).

A plinth could be made by using moulding, or simply routing a nice piece of suitably sized timber for the glass package to sit into.

A plinth should be extended out enough to give the whole thing stability, and the overall size would depend on format (portrait / landscape, size of piece).

There are probably other ways to do this with a frame, and even with no timber plinth (using all glass, or really thick glass to be self supporting).

Try ringing around a few glass companies, and see if anyone is experienced with UV glue work on display cabinets etc, or can give you a referral.
There aren't many here in Australia, maybe the same there too, but you might strike it lucky and get a lead.

[osgood]

this could be a very easy job, and relatively inexpensive for all concerned.

Les,
You have a good idea there. I wouldn't have thought of doing that myself.

"relatively" is the operative word here. I can't imagine two pieces of 10mm x 24" x 13" (plus a couple of inches allowance) glass with polished edges being inexpensive here in my town. I would guess that it would be in the area of $400 plus. Then I would have to make a plinth for it as well which would add some more dollars to the price.

That would make it a lot more than float framing with three mats (wide) and a great looking frame, but if a customer was prepared to pay for doing that way, I certainly wouldn't argue.

If I got a job like that, I think I would send the order to you. The glass guys up here have dollar shaped pupils in their eyes!

[realhotglass]

Yep, just revisited the OP, and 24" x 13" is a very reasonable size to do this with, and pricing is all relative.

I'd be tempted to add say 1" all round, then an extra 2" on the height for stability, which would be hidden in the plinth, so the art would float with 1" of space all round.

Anticipating that the art is 24" high, I figure a glass size of 27" h x 15" (~685mm h x 380mm).

Glass and FEP edges for 2 x 10mm glass would be ~ AUD$200, a little for a spacer, say in 4mm glass, and some assembly (maybe $80 - $100).

My timber fellow would make a plinth from most likely 2 x laminated 32mm mdf, so there can be the rebated section ~ 2" depth.
I'd say going for something like a total base size of width of glass + 2" each side, then the depth + 3" to 4", as this is where the stability is needed.
The MDF is routed nicely, all sealed and finished, and little problem with migration / outgassing in this sort of design, glass is all around and between the art.

Suppose the plinth cost would be ~ $100.

All up I ballpark a cost of say AUD$440 (~GBP194).
Shipping in Aus would be ~ $50, and this would travel quite fine with our packing.

Not bad for unique design, one of type of display.
Some will pay for that type of thing.

Framers would normally add a couple of hundred to that as they don't need a lot of involvement with this sort of thing, just help solve a clients particular project needs, and make a nice little bob for making a couple of calls and working up the final design etc with us.

You could certainly do this in 8mm glass, or even 6mm toughened for less cost, but the aesthetics of the thicker glass is fantastic for the wow factor.

Heck, I could do it in optically coated 6mm toughened if they wanted it !! : ) now that would look awesome.

Sure, there are several ways this could be framed for similar finished price, or less.
All depends on what the client really wants, and if they are willing to pay for it.

On a side note, is there any PF industry standard (both here in Aus Ormond, and others in the UK and US) for measuring . . . what do you write first, height or width ?

From what I've seen, I think framers generally state width first, then height.
In the glass industry (at least here in Aus), it's height then width, so it can be confusing.
I always ask if in doubt.

[Bagel Framer]

Thanks all, I'll do some ringing around.

Incidentally, the papyrus is in a landscape orientation and is 24" long by 13" wide. I agree on reflection that no frame is largely impossible in this case, so would add a U shaped frame.

I can go back to the customer and get thicknesses of glass etc too and will take it from there, John Jones in London maybe able to assist.

I guess thick perspex isn't an option - I doubt it would look as clean as glass, plus the thickness would be of matt appearance too in theory.

What does everyone think of literally sandwiching the papyrus in between the two pieces of glass - the frame would then hold it all together?

Thanks

[Bill Henry]

We’ve done the glass “sandwich” for papyrus on occasion with success.

Try the Forum link and read the brilliantly conceived and cleverly written post from the guy in New Hampshire.

[Bagel Framer]

Good work Bill, that's good news...!

I saw your/the thread last night, but must have missed key bits (it was late and I was weary).

OK - that said, if we were to sandwich the papyrus between two acid free pieces of glass and then partial frame it, would that be acceptable?

I only ask as there has been mention of matboards etc behind the papyrus - my intention is to have a sheet of glass, then the papyrus, then the back sheet of glass. My philosophy then is that it's all held under tension by the perfectly tailored base that I'd make too.

Thanks

[osgood]

What does everyone think of literally sandwiching the papyrus in between the two pieces of glass - the frame would then hold it all together?

If the papyrus was valuable to the customer, putting glass hard up against it would probably not be a great idea from the point of view of condensation forming on the glass and passing onto the papyrus.
Another issue is whether the paint on the papyrus might adhere itself to the glass over time.

[Bill Henry]

If the papyrus was valuable to the customer, putting glass hard up against it would probably not be a great idea from the point of view of condensation forming on the glass and passing onto the papyrus.
Another issue is whether the paint on the papyrus might adhere itself to the glass over time.

Most of the papyri (???) we deal with are either souvenirs from the gift shop of a museum or, more rarely, picked up from a street vendor on the outskirts of Luxor or some magical place in Egypt.

We have yet to see any real antiques.

I may be way off here, but given the porosity and roughness of papyrus, I have doubts whether the papyrus itself would stick to the glass.

It is more likely, I think, that the gold-ish paints they sometime use on them might be problematic, but we’ve not had any problems that we know about with a simple glass sandwich sealed with foil rabbet (rebate) tape.

[osgood]

Bill,
I was referring to the paint, but have you ever touched a damp papyrus? I got one in last week that had been framed before, badly, and had corrugations about half an inch deep.
I slightly dampened the back and placed it under a stack of matboards and a few buckets of lead sinkers to flatten it.
While handling it when it was slightly damp on the back, it was quite slimey and sticky. I think that in a humid climate, sandwiched in between or up against glass it might just be possible for it to stick to the glass.

While most of the papyrus I get ,are is as you say cheap tourist stuff, I have had customers say that they paid hundreds and more for them and that makes the papyrus valuable to them. Whether have a large monetary value, or not I treat them as if they are really valuable in most cases.

[realhotglass]

The client should have the say in value (real and/or sentimental), and how something like this is treated / framed.

After all, this could be a reminder of a trip of a (their) lifetime.

That said, maybe if the back piece of glazing isn't as exposed as the front (wall hanging for example) then this could be glazed in acrylic . . . less (but certainly not exempt from) condensation problems at least.

Condensation might not be as bad in Bagels location as here in Aus, I suppose.

Sticking, rubbing, etc in places long term still might be an issue.

Why not leave a space between the glass, with just enough room to hold the piece without it having room to (trying to think of the best word) sink or sag between the glass ?

Maybe a couple of mm or so is all that is needed.
At least it wouldn't be hard sandwiched in there.
You could use a strip of thin acrylic material right across the bottom (between the glasses) for the spacer, high enough to give any float appearance desired.

[Not your average framer]

Now the papyrus is postioned onto the third piece of glass after a very light dusting of spraymount or similar on the back of the papyrus (not onto the glass). It's not conservation, but at least a very light dusting of spraymount can't be seen.

Like I said it's not conservation - No attempt to say otherwise, it's not good text book practice. Also spraymount is not particularly good at sticking to papyrus either, but you can get away with it with a little pressure from the two sheets of glass.

[Not your average framer]

If the papyrus was valuable to the customer, putting glass hard up against it would probably not be a great idea from the point of view of condensation forming on the glass and passing onto the papyrus.

Hi Ormond,

Yes, this is not ideal, but with the four sheets of glass the main condensation effect will occur on the two outer sheets. The volume of air behind these outer sheets is larger and being closer to the effects of the outside world the temperature gradients and rate of temperature charge will be greater.

In an ideal world we would find a better way perhaps, but there are several I've done this way and I've recently done an order for one lady who is still happy with the job after three years. It's may not be text book stuff, but we get away with it and make sure the customer is told a the facts first.

Another issue is whether the paint on the papyrus might adhere itself to the glass over time.

Sounds quite likely to me too! A fixative might help, but I wouldn't bet on it. Again it's not good practice, but like I said we get away with it!

If it was anything of value, you wouldn't agree to do it, without a signed disclaimer from the customer.

[Bagel Framer]

Thanks again for the tips - sod's law the customer has put this on the back burner now, but got all interested again when I collected x2 posters that they want framing..! I said I'll work on a price for them as I'm curious myself.

Key bits to come of the latest discussion this past Wednesday:

- Glass is to be 3/4mm thick
- They want to mount it on the wall

Re. point two, they saw it in a museum but can't remember where. Citing the fact that we're not magicians, I said that they only way it could be mounted was if it was on a shelf (as I still want to do this partial frame idea).

As an after thought, the only other way I can think they mean is like I've seen things wall mounted in the Tate Modern, ie. thick stainless wire with metal bushes - these then look to go through the wall/cavity and are secured on the other side. I'm not going to suggest that to them though as I'm not a builder and don't want to start massacreing their walls...!

Hopefully it will get of the ground - if it does I'll do pictures of it, I might even do a test one myself and put that up. In the meantime I'm doing a double sided frame for my nephew so he can see both sides of his Chelsea Shirt. I've literally float mounted it between two sheets of perspex and have routered two pine frames which I'll screw together.

Should look good....!

[osgood]

- Glass is to be 3/4mm thick

That's pretty darn thin. Can you get glass that thin???

[Roboframer]

That's pretty darn thin. Can you get glass that thin???

Only if you beat it!

Think he means 3 - 4mm