Just received an order of mouldings yesterday and today unwrapped to inspect and use - nice thought!
There is a number of the lengths of various shapes, sizes etc which are a bit banana shaped.
My question is: is this normal or is there an acceptable tolerance over a 2.5/3mtr length such that it won't affect the frame once assembled?
Banana Shaped Mouldings!
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kev@frames
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it often depends on a "gentlemans agreement" between you and your supplier - if you have brokered a hefty discount or other favourable terms, it would be "normal practice" to overlook a "reasonable" amount of defects, but do draw the suppliers attentrion to dsefects in any case, as they may be unaware of them.
for example- this week we had 500ft of an obeche case moulding for football shirt cases. three or four sticks were defective for various reasons. I dont bother sending them back, just take it as part of being "trade". I will mention it to my supplier when i next see him, something along the lines of "send the carp to someone else next time, please".
There are different expectations between "trade" and "retail" and normally under UK law with "trade" orders and terms you are expected to accept a small (reasonable) amount of defects/shortages etc.
I know some framers who examine and send back everything with the slightest defect or blemish - I would be very surprised if they were getting the best prices. After all, your wholesaler wants to shift stuff wioth the minimum of fuss
It really depends on your supplier, i guess strictly speaking if they are not useable you should ask for a credit and see if the supplier wants them returned. It depends on exactly how much of your order is defective - eg. a minor amount, or a significant amount.
Trouble with some bananna shaped mouldings is that you dont know until the stick is cut and pinned, and other times bananna shaped stuff will really surprise you and go together perfectly.
is it permenantly warped, or does it return to "normal" after a few days unwrapped at room temperature?
as a general rule you dont want to bother using badly warped mouldings, but dont lose track of the fact that it is timber and a natural prouct so some defects are inevitable.
for example- this week we had 500ft of an obeche case moulding for football shirt cases. three or four sticks were defective for various reasons. I dont bother sending them back, just take it as part of being "trade". I will mention it to my supplier when i next see him, something along the lines of "send the carp to someone else next time, please".
There are different expectations between "trade" and "retail" and normally under UK law with "trade" orders and terms you are expected to accept a small (reasonable) amount of defects/shortages etc.
I know some framers who examine and send back everything with the slightest defect or blemish - I would be very surprised if they were getting the best prices. After all, your wholesaler wants to shift stuff wioth the minimum of fuss
It really depends on your supplier, i guess strictly speaking if they are not useable you should ask for a credit and see if the supplier wants them returned. It depends on exactly how much of your order is defective - eg. a minor amount, or a significant amount.
Trouble with some bananna shaped mouldings is that you dont know until the stick is cut and pinned, and other times bananna shaped stuff will really surprise you and go together perfectly.
is it permenantly warped, or does it return to "normal" after a few days unwrapped at room temperature?
as a general rule you dont want to bother using badly warped mouldings, but dont lose track of the fact that it is timber and a natural prouct so some defects are inevitable.
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Roboframer
Sometimes I feel guilty complaining about warps, twists and blemishes, because I am getting good deals from all my suppliers.
Then again, if it's not cheap and/or I've ordered what I need and it comes bent or warped etc - it has to be replaced regardless
Some suppliers sort problems like this overnight - both replacement and reparation - some don't.
Then again, if it's not cheap and/or I've ordered what I need and it comes bent or warped etc - it has to be replaced regardless
Some suppliers sort problems like this overnight - both replacement and reparation - some don't.
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osgood
When you got the 'good deals' did they tell you that the moulding was supposed to have warps, twists and blemishes???Roboframer wrote:Sometimes I feel guilty complaining about warps, twists and blemishes, because I am getting good deals from all my suppliers.
If they didn't, then don't feel guilty, send the crap back! They should feel guilty for sending you product that was defective!
I've never seen any document from any supplier that says mouldings will include warps, twists and blemishes as a disclaimer. Thus, we should only accept an absolute minimum of waste due to manufacture! 10% is the maximum I will accept from anyone, even when buying at box price!
Why is taken for granted that the end user (framers) are the quality control for manufacturers and we should be the ones to take a loss on the defective stuff????????????????
Don't get me started on moulding quality...............bugger!......too late!
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Moglet
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Hi Dot,
As a novice, and in order to offer my customers a reasonably wide selection of mouldings, I only buy in small quantities, and consequently if I receive warped/twisted/badly damaged mouldings I realistically need to take it up with my suppliers. If it's not one of my fast-moving stock mouldings, and I have enough in the rest of the pack to finish the customer order in question, I ask for a credit to the value of the faulty length(s). If it's a fast moving line, I usually just ask for a replacement to be sent with my next order.
By using this method, I'm gradually ending up with fewer "odd lengths" sitting on my overcrowded rack waiting for the miraculous order that they will be "just right" for, so I'm getting the benefits of space saving, and reducing the amount of money I have tied up in slow-moving stock.
For what it's worth, with my main supplier, I have an agreement with them that I don't have to report a faulty item more or less immediately I take delivery in order to receive a credit or replacement. Instead, I make a note of dodgy stock as I go along, and every month or so, I request a credit note for the items on my list. Less admin at their end and, being a one-man-band, I find it helpful with my limited time resources not to have to open up every pack of moulding the moment it comes in.
As a novice, and in order to offer my customers a reasonably wide selection of mouldings, I only buy in small quantities, and consequently if I receive warped/twisted/badly damaged mouldings I realistically need to take it up with my suppliers. If it's not one of my fast-moving stock mouldings, and I have enough in the rest of the pack to finish the customer order in question, I ask for a credit to the value of the faulty length(s). If it's a fast moving line, I usually just ask for a replacement to be sent with my next order.
By using this method, I'm gradually ending up with fewer "odd lengths" sitting on my overcrowded rack waiting for the miraculous order that they will be "just right" for, so I'm getting the benefits of space saving, and reducing the amount of money I have tied up in slow-moving stock.
For what it's worth, with my main supplier, I have an agreement with them that I don't have to report a faulty item more or less immediately I take delivery in order to receive a credit or replacement. Instead, I make a note of dodgy stock as I go along, and every month or so, I request a credit note for the items on my list. Less admin at their end and, being a one-man-band, I find it helpful with my limited time resources not to have to open up every pack of moulding the moment it comes in.
........Áine JGF SGF FTB
.Briseann an dúchas trí shuiligh an chuit.
.Briseann an dúchas trí shuiligh an chuit.
It's not the banana-shaped lengths that are so much of a pain than the propeller shaped ones. 
Some mouldings seem particually prone to twisting and with obeche the denser the wood the more likely to have a twist. The 'snotwood' bits are always straight. 
At one time I used lots nice silver-gilt moulding for aircraft l/e prints. It looked great, but some batches were very twisty. If I got 2 frames out of 100ft I was doing well. The supplier always credited me without question and never wanted the bad bits back so I assume this was not an uncommon occurance with this moulding. Eventually the manf changed the base wood to a pine, which never twisted but rejected all known glues. I think it was at this time that I started experimenting with hand-finished frames. If you are working from bare wood then small twists can often be compensated for.
I agree that one should not expect ever inch of a batch of moulding to be perfect. I allow 20% wasteage when costing moulding. I'm sure suppliers factor in a similar amount into the price for returns.
Some mouldings seem particually prone to twisting and with obeche the denser the wood the more likely to have a twist. The 'snotwood' bits are always straight. At one time I used lots nice silver-gilt moulding for aircraft l/e prints. It looked great, but some batches were very twisty. If I got 2 frames out of 100ft I was doing well. The supplier always credited me without question and never wanted the bad bits back so I assume this was not an uncommon occurance with this moulding. Eventually the manf changed the base wood to a pine, which never twisted but rejected all known glues. I think it was at this time that I started experimenting with hand-finished frames. If you are working from bare wood then small twists can often be compensated for.I agree that one should not expect ever inch of a batch of moulding to be perfect. I allow 20% wasteage when costing moulding. I'm sure suppliers factor in a similar amount into the price for returns.
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Roboframer
I just love it when I order, say 12m of a moulding - needing most of it - otherwise I'd have ordered more.
12m comes, but it's got 6 little white labels on with '1ft allowed' and the packing note states that only 10 metres has been accounted for and I am only invoiced for 10m.
So - that's OK then?
But ONE supplier - on the rare occasions that defective stuff is sent - with these labels on - sends another length or two and charges me for 12m. They seem to realise that I may need the quantity I have ordered.
I'll name the one supplier - Nielsen - very rarely get a problem with their 'exclusive' range.
12m comes, but it's got 6 little white labels on with '1ft allowed' and the packing note states that only 10 metres has been accounted for and I am only invoiced for 10m.
So - that's OK then?
But ONE supplier - on the rare occasions that defective stuff is sent - with these labels on - sends another length or two and charges me for 12m. They seem to realise that I may need the quantity I have ordered.
I'll name the one supplier - Nielsen - very rarely get a problem with their 'exclusive' range.
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lynnbmack
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Funnily enough, I had to get a replacement chop order frame the other day for the first time:due to warping - I had hoped it might straighten out when pinned together but,no.
With chop orders, I would expect a replacement as you are paying more and the supplier should be including an allowance for some of this in their price.
Incidentally there was no problem getting a replacement - it's Nielsen I use and have had no reason to grumble - their customer service is excellent.
With chop orders, I would expect a replacement as you are paying more and the supplier should be including an allowance for some of this in their price.
Incidentally there was no problem getting a replacement - it's Nielsen I use and have had no reason to grumble - their customer service is excellent.
I allow 20% wastages on my mouldings, if you have say 4 lengths of moulding and only 2 lengths are useable then you are more than entitled to some of you money back.
Those little stickers 1 foot allowed drive me nuts, they are always on wide mouldings, by the time you cut around the stickers (there is always more than one) you end up been 30cm short of completing your frame
Those little stickers 1 foot allowed drive me nuts, they are always on wide mouldings, by the time you cut around the stickers (there is always more than one) you end up been 30cm short of completing your frame
Apologies people for not replying sooner.
Thank you for all your comments and as usual a whole can of worms rears its head!
Aine, like you I am a novice and only buy in small quantities, so when I get damaged stock I get more than a bit annoyed. I'm always careful to buy more than minimum quantity so that there is a reasonable amount for travelling.
I have had damaged stuff before and the supplier replaced it without any problems (another supplier, not this one).
My banana moulding has joined fine, so thank you for your help. Propeller mouldings haven't happened yet!
Lynn, I would be really ticked off if I got a 'chop service' that was warped - surely they would notice that kind of thing.
Beth, little stickers - ha!, you having a laugh - never seen them on any of the mouldings I have had and I use three different suppliers.
So thank you all and have a great xmas.
I'm hoping to get down to the nec next year so might see some of you down there.
Thank you for all your comments and as usual a whole can of worms rears its head!
Aine, like you I am a novice and only buy in small quantities, so when I get damaged stock I get more than a bit annoyed. I'm always careful to buy more than minimum quantity so that there is a reasonable amount for travelling.
I have had damaged stuff before and the supplier replaced it without any problems (another supplier, not this one).
My banana moulding has joined fine, so thank you for your help. Propeller mouldings haven't happened yet!
Lynn, I would be really ticked off if I got a 'chop service' that was warped - surely they would notice that kind of thing.
Beth, little stickers - ha!, you having a laugh - never seen them on any of the mouldings I have had and I use three different suppliers.
So thank you all and have a great xmas.
I'm hoping to get down to the nec next year so might see some of you down there.
Dot