Window-mount width?

[David McCormack]

I know there is a 'general rule' (and I have a general rule that general rules can be broken ) that the window-mount width should not be the same as the width of the frame.

But I'm framing two photograph portraits in a dark flat oak frame with a width of 35mm and the widow-mount is Daler Rust which is also going to be 35mm (actual width 40mm but 35mm visible). It looks ok to me and me thinks if it looks ok then it is ok Frame size is around 14 x 11 inches and will be free standing.

Customer doesn't want a bigger mount as this will make the frames too big. Just wondered what others think about the relationship between frame width and window-mount width? As I say, the mount can't be bigger but I could make them smaller by maybe 10mm?

[Ed209]

You can only advise, the customer has the final decision I had a customer in today to collect her picture with 80mm visible that I advised she originally wanted 30mm same as frame but explained the 80mm would look better (couldn’t get the 90mm bigger bottom across to her) she is absolutely delighted and is bringing in some pictures she had framed somewhere else for reframing with bigger mounts. But I have noticed a lot of people are very reluctant to have mounts much wider than 30mm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Not your average framer]

I was always taught that mounts should never be the same width as the moulding, it just looks a bit strange. Another related point is that you need adequate wall space around a frame to maintain visual impact and that it may be necessary to reduce the mount borders to maintain adequate wall space around the framed picture.

[poliopete]

To be honest, I was never aware of this "general rule" regarding window-mount widths until I joined the FF I have always favoured more generous mounts and still do.

Perhaps because we have, at all times, displayed framed examples on the walls with generous mounts customers asking for skimpy mount widths has never been a problem It also occurred to me very early on that as well as generous mounts looking better they add value. As a way of leading my customers towards wider mounts, the chevrons cut from the boards in stock, are 4" wide.

Paul, well done for advising you customer that 80mm would look better and as a consequence generating repeat business

FWIW As well as disliking skimpy mean looking mounts I personally, do not like dark/gloomy mounts.

Peter.

Note to self; add "skimpy mounts" to Steve's pet hates thread

[kuduframes]

I think best general rule is " It looks ok to me and me thinks if it looks ok then it is ok"
simple rules are often best

[prospero]

I second Kudu's comment.

Like all 'rules' it often come down to 'it depends'.

I have a framed print om my wall with a 70mm mount and a 70mm frame. That looks alright.

But....

The frame is a moulding that is split into 3 areas. 10mm raised bead on the outside, 50mm slightly domed middle and 15mm
ornate pattern on the inside. Also, the mount has a fillet. So it's divided visually. As well as that, the print has a 20mm visible border.


When it comes to to mounts that are narrower or equal to the frame width (particularly dark mounts) the eye often associates them
with the frame and so a 35mm frame with a 35mm mount looks like a 70mm frame.

[David McCormack]

As I say, these frames are free standing with strut backs so a wide mount just looks wrong and I want to keep the finished size of frame as small as possible. I will probably reduce the size of the mount to less than the width of the frame.

If I'm making a frame to hang on the wall then yes, I go for wide mounts..... usually the dark gloomy ones or as they are known up here: 'The Heritage Colours'

[Not your average framer]

Another general thing that I was taught is that as the size of the artwork decreases there is a point where you start increasing the mount borders the more the artwork decreases. From my own personal perspective, I favour larger mount borders and I'm not much of a fan of really skinny mouldings. lot of skinny mouldings are not necessarily going to remain straight over the years and have really inadequate rebate depths.

Unfortunately customers are often convinced that this is what they want and I have to oblige. I hand finish Simons oak/7 quite a bit to provide a more solid narrow black frame using a mixture of black and brown acrylic paint to give a slightly off-black which give a little bit of an older looking black, as opposed to a modern hard black.

I don't have any difficulty selling this to customers, as I have a display sample and let them choose for them selves and this is particularly popular with monochrome photos with large mounts, which seem to be the in thing quite recently.

[Steve N]

When I made this rule ( ) that the mount should not be the the same width as the moulding, put simply , if you have too many elements of the same size in the frame package , the eye will not flow to the artwork/photo, this observation is based on the fact, if you look at real proper washlines on a mount, all the elements, thickness of the lines, distance between the lines and the wash panels are all different, and just look right, when compared with ones that are all the same, it looks wrong and looks to busy.
Better to make the mount smaller, and in this case I think you are right David, as it's free standing, if you make it bigger, then it will be top heavy and be unstable

[louisesimon]

I find it unbelievable that you can talk about all these rules without an example of artwork...the art being the most important and varied aspect of almost any frame.

Treat every item individually.

[David McCormack]

Absolutely louisesimon

It looks ok to me and me thinks if it looks ok then it is ok

[prospero]

I find it unbelievable that you can talk about all these rules without an example of artwork...the art being the most important and varied aspect of almost any frame.

Treat every item individually.

Exactly. What's goose for the gander is sauce for the other.

I agree about stand up frames. They need to be fairly robust and generally a generous sized moulding is desirable. Therefore
a small mount - often smaller than the moulding is called for. Most (if not all) stand-ups are for photographs and so the frame
doesn't have to 'relate' to the image in the same way as a piece of art. Unless it's an 'arty' type photo. I'm talking family snaps and wotnots.
Rather like a mirror frame it has to harmonise with the room. The mount acts more as a glass spacer than a crucial part of the presentation.
I typically use a 30mm mount width on stand up frames.

[caro]

At some point in my training, 20 years and I'm still learning, I realised that same width moulding and mount border can create a stripey effect. I usually work to the rule of thirds.There's an explanation of the golden ratio by Mark Wilson in Annabelle Ruston's book 'Frame Design'. For example the thirds principle is that if your frame is 20mm wide the mount looks best at 60mm, ie 3 x the width of the moulding. But rules are there to be broken and you should follow your intiuition about what looks right.

[prospero]

The 'Golden Section' is a useful tool. Why it produces a pleasing effect is anyone's guess.

Mathematically it is 1.618 (and a bit): 1. Very near a modern TV screen.

All this stuff largely works on the subconscious mind. Same sort of thing as bottom-weighted mount borders. Make them equal and
the top always looks wider. You can check it as much as you like, but to the eye the top will look wider. Ask someone to draw a
triangle and they will mostly draw it apex-up. Never down. (Well hardly ever... ) It's all a matter of stability, or perceived stability.
A drawn triangle isn't going to fall over, but a point-down one imparts a subconscious feeling of insecurity.
With mounts this gets worse with portrait format. The taller and narrower the more it looks as though it could fall over. Extra 'weight' makes
it easier on the eye = the mind.

I have told people before that you look with your eyes, not with a ruler.

[David McCormack]

Arqadia are promoting equal frame and mount width in their latest newsletter

Arqadia-Schoolboy.jpg (507.31 KiB) Viewed 15652 times

[Rainbow]

^ I've just had an eye test that looked like that. "Which colour looks the most prominent, the red or the cream?" Changes lens. "Now which colour looks the most prominent?" Repeat ad nauseam.

[Steve N]

David McCoack wrote
"Arqadia are promoting equal frame and mount width in their latest newsletter "

So, what do they know ?

Read my signature

[Not your average framer]

Arqadia are promoting equal frame and mount width in their latest newsletter

Would this have anything to do with selling more wider mouldings and therefore making more money?

How could I even suggest such a thing!

[span2iels]

An interesting series of posts. Personally, I prefer a wide mount and my minimum width is around 70mm;, however, this will change dependent upon the type/shape of mount’s aperture and subject. As suggested throughout the posts if the mount looks aesthetically good then that should be pleasing all round. But I also believe that the emphasis lies with the framer and how he/she sells the package to the customer. As Poliopete mentions by suggesting a wider mounts the upside was creating additional repeat business. This would be my position as personally I like my artwork to breathe.
However, as Dave mentions the proportions in this situation have to be such that the final framed item is stable.

There is a quote the suggests that ‘Rules are for the obedience fools and the guidance of wise men’ and I might suggest that this might apply to framing because we are most often driven by the requirements of the customer. Certainly from my perspective any form of rules regarding mount design was firmly placed in the bin when studying arabesque and Persian/Mughal artwork where geometric and decorative borders broke all the rules portrayed in the West. For instance the position of the image was often offset and the on occasions the decorative borders were as beautiful as the artwork which in the West we would have thought were overpowering.

For those who have not viewed the video I made on ‘Border Proportions’ the link is as follows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAG1A00O9OU

There are further videos relating to mount decoration etc on my Youtube Channel link, for those who may be interested the link is as follows, the most recent was added yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrRkbh ... 7pE_70qVig