Hi all ,
I have been using a hgp 360 for ove 11 years and love the machine I think it was the first 360 to be sold in Australia ,I had a 350 before it and it had both seal and hinging issues .
I usually seal and mount in one hit ,prints no problem the heat seal and mounting process is over in less than 2.5 min @ 90 degrees and old photos round the 4-6 min depending on the age the older the better.
The new photos are taking I find longer and longer to get the seal to properly adhere to the face of the photo which causes the adhesive to fail especially on the edges where you get more pressure,yes you can speed up the process by sealing the photo first then mount it down however that causes a problem this process seems to polish the back of the photo ( no matter what its sitting on) to the point that the glue sheet will not stick to it.
I think it is attributed to possiby a product change in the print labs as older photos present no problem.
Any ideas??
hot press mounting
-
tightchamber
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Wed 23 Jan, 2008 7:36 pm
- Location: HUNTER VALLEY Australia
hot press mounting
john butcher
-
Not your average framer
- Posts: 11005
- Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
- Location: Devon, U.K.
- Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
- Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
- Location: Glorious Devon
-
Lemon_Drop
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Wed 12 Oct, 2005 7:52 pm
Hi John welcome to the forum.
You will find that the name John is a very popular name here
I'm no expert on heatseal/dry mounting, theres alot more people here that would know alot more then me.
When you heatseal / drymount in one go, the figure of 2.5 minutes dwell time seems like a very short time, even though your getting good results without silvering.
On the Hotpress site, it gives dwell times for a 10 x 12 of between 4 and 15 minutes depending on the laminates being used.
http://www.hotpress.co.uk/instructions.htm
The problem with the new photos is that by doing both heatseal and drymount at the same time, its hard to tell if its the laminate of the drymount tissue or film,is the problem.
Maybe it would be better to just drymount first, and then increase the dwell time if your not getting a good bond. I think its the length of time thats the problem, if your are using Hotpress Heatseals.
Other people here might have a better idea.
You will find that the name John is a very popular name here
I'm no expert on heatseal/dry mounting, theres alot more people here that would know alot more then me.
When you heatseal / drymount in one go, the figure of 2.5 minutes dwell time seems like a very short time, even though your getting good results without silvering.
On the Hotpress site, it gives dwell times for a 10 x 12 of between 4 and 15 minutes depending on the laminates being used.
http://www.hotpress.co.uk/instructions.htm
The problem with the new photos is that by doing both heatseal and drymount at the same time, its hard to tell if its the laminate of the drymount tissue or film,is the problem.
Maybe it would be better to just drymount first, and then increase the dwell time if your not getting a good bond. I think its the length of time thats the problem, if your are using Hotpress Heatseals.
Other people here might have a better idea.
-
tightchamber
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Wed 23 Jan, 2008 7:36 pm
- Location: HUNTER VALLEY Australia
Hi Thanks for the reply,s,
Been using the same dry mount tissue (extra bond ) for years with no problems and I have talked to the manufacturer and their response is the adhesive is failing due to excesive heat and time in the press.
I think possibly due to the length of time in the press its drawing moisture back up through the mdf creating a barrier and resulting in failure to adhere.
I always let the job cool face down under a weight
Block mounting onto 12mm with a 45 degree splay on the edge is all the rage at the moment ,posters are a snack with the heatseal and never had a failure and curing this problem is a challenge that I wont walk away from ,at the moment I am thinking about treating the photo with something (not sure what) to reduce time in the press.
Cheers
Been using the same dry mount tissue (extra bond ) for years with no problems and I have talked to the manufacturer and their response is the adhesive is failing due to excesive heat and time in the press.
I think possibly due to the length of time in the press its drawing moisture back up through the mdf creating a barrier and resulting in failure to adhere.
I always let the job cool face down under a weight
Block mounting onto 12mm with a 45 degree splay on the edge is all the rage at the moment ,posters are a snack with the heatseal and never had a failure and curing this problem is a challenge that I wont walk away from ,at the moment I am thinking about treating the photo with something (not sure what) to reduce time in the press.
Cheers
john butcher
-
Framerpicture
- Posts: 899
- Joined: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 2:38 pm
- Location: Somerset
- Organisation: Picture Framing
- Interests: Mountain Biking, Walking,
- Contact:
I'm by no means an expert either but we do regularly dry mount and laminate work. I've experienced the same problem as you some time ago and we solved it by putting the board in the press on its own for 2-3 mins to dry it out first and then laminate it as usual.
For a 20" x 30" photo dry-mounted and heatsealed using a lustre laminate and tissue on to mdf we would give a dwell time of 8 mins @88c and do it in one hit which seems to work for us!!
The other answer is to use dry mouting film but of course its far more expensive than the tissue
For a 20" x 30" photo dry-mounted and heatsealed using a lustre laminate and tissue on to mdf we would give a dwell time of 8 mins @88c and do it in one hit which seems to work for us!!
The other answer is to use dry mouting film but of course its far more expensive than the tissue
-
Lemon_Drop
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Wed 12 Oct, 2005 7:52 pm
It might help if you post this on The Picture Framers Grumble also John you might get other views there.
http://www.thegrumble.com/
Alot of the people here would use Hotpress tissues laminates, and not be aware of other brands in other countries.
When I first read your post, the bit that stuck out as being wrong was the 2.5 minutes dwell time for a heatseal/drymount, compared to Hotpress products the temperature is right but the dwell time is way to low.
I dont know what the recomended temp. of extra bond tissue is, but 90 degrees seems like a common temp.
I dont think its the drymount tissue, when it reaches its activation temperature it sets, more likely as your thinking its excess moisture in the board.
Its the process of elimation, try pre drying the board like Framerpicture said and see it that makes a differance.
Another idea is that the temp gauge is showing 90 on the dial, but is it 90 degrees in the press?
If its not 90 degrees in the press alot of mositure will stay in the press and not evaporated because the temp is not hight enough.
I would get some temp, test strips and see what the temp, is in the press and not whats on the gauge, also empty the water trap before the vacuum pump and empty it, and see if its picking up moisture on the drymount/heatseal cycle.
If theres that much moisture in the board the water trap should pick up alot of it.
I think its either the board or the temp. in the press is not what your looking at on the temp. gauge. The vacuum is sucking out the moisture and theres not enough heat to evaproate it, so it stays in the press and the drymount porcess then fails.
My guess is that the temperature is alot lower in the press than what your reading on the temperature gauge.
But then again I'm know to be wrong.
It might not be a bad idea to get in touch with Hotpress also, maybe they could shed some light on the problem.
http://www.thegrumble.com/
Alot of the people here would use Hotpress tissues laminates, and not be aware of other brands in other countries.
When I first read your post, the bit that stuck out as being wrong was the 2.5 minutes dwell time for a heatseal/drymount, compared to Hotpress products the temperature is right but the dwell time is way to low.
I dont know what the recomended temp. of extra bond tissue is, but 90 degrees seems like a common temp.
I dont think its the drymount tissue, when it reaches its activation temperature it sets, more likely as your thinking its excess moisture in the board.
Its the process of elimation, try pre drying the board like Framerpicture said and see it that makes a differance.
Another idea is that the temp gauge is showing 90 on the dial, but is it 90 degrees in the press?
If its not 90 degrees in the press alot of mositure will stay in the press and not evaporated because the temp is not hight enough.
I would get some temp, test strips and see what the temp, is in the press and not whats on the gauge, also empty the water trap before the vacuum pump and empty it, and see if its picking up moisture on the drymount/heatseal cycle.
If theres that much moisture in the board the water trap should pick up alot of it.
I think its either the board or the temp. in the press is not what your looking at on the temp. gauge. The vacuum is sucking out the moisture and theres not enough heat to evaproate it, so it stays in the press and the drymount porcess then fails.
My guess is that the temperature is alot lower in the press than what your reading on the temperature gauge.
But then again I'm know to be wrong.
It might not be a bad idea to get in touch with Hotpress also, maybe they could shed some light on the problem.
-
tightchamber
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Wed 23 Jan, 2008 7:36 pm
- Location: HUNTER VALLEY Australia
G'day Lemon Drop thanks for your input,
I have checked the temp and its spot on what the gauge indicates and in referance to the dwell time 2.5 min seems to be plenty of time even on jigsaw puzzels that are thicker and I have never had a job returned that had had either the lam or tissue fail.
My issue is the time that lapses for new photos to be heat sealed I am finding it is taking near double the time in the press to remove all the silvering and due to the excessive time and heat the tissue is failing.
I seal a lot of photos imposed on canvas I mean 15 - 20 a week that are the stretched on a stretcher and I give them 2 min without no problem with the lam sticking in fact at 1.5 min on this material there is no evidence of silvering.
Cheers
I have checked the temp and its spot on what the gauge indicates and in referance to the dwell time 2.5 min seems to be plenty of time even on jigsaw puzzels that are thicker and I have never had a job returned that had had either the lam or tissue fail.
My issue is the time that lapses for new photos to be heat sealed I am finding it is taking near double the time in the press to remove all the silvering and due to the excessive time and heat the tissue is failing.
I seal a lot of photos imposed on canvas I mean 15 - 20 a week that are the stretched on a stretcher and I give them 2 min without no problem with the lam sticking in fact at 1.5 min on this material there is no evidence of silvering.
Cheers
john butcher
Just a thought....-
tightchamber
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Wed 23 Jan, 2008 7:36 pm
- Location: HUNTER VALLEY Australia
G,day, I use pre pierced laminates which work fine on everything except the new photos straight from the labs, if its been printed say at a kodak shop a printer out of a photo shop dead easy no worries job both sealed and mounted in 5 min m
Foam blankets ok and have tried both 5 & 10mm with not a great deal of differance.
Cheers
Foam blankets ok and have tried both 5 & 10mm with not a great deal of differance.
Cheers
john butcher
-
Ian Goodman
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Sat 22 May, 2004 1:07 pm
- Location: Ashtonfield NSW Australia
- Organisation: Ian Goodman Photography
- Interests: Chinese Cooking.
Playing with my Grandchildren
Photoshop Training with Maitland U3A - Location: Ashtonfield - Australia
hot press mounting
Hi John
I use a HGP360 also and I tend to agree that the dwell time is too short.
Most images if not all are from digital printers and I have found that heat sealing and dry mounting in one operation fails.
Why: Well heat seal film can stand a temperate of 90degc but dry mounting onto Foam core or block mounting you have to drop the temperature to as low as 78deg c and then 2.8 minutes because if you use 90deg c for 3mins you will have a problem with the emulsion lifting in an irregular pattern.
For most operations of Heat sealing and dry mounting I do two operations heat seal first drop the temperature and then dry mount.
For block mounts like you describe I always dry the block mount out in the press first as you will probably already know MDF is like a sponge and if it has over 60% of moisteure content the problems like you describe happen.
I hope this helps.
I use a HGP360 also and I tend to agree that the dwell time is too short.
Most images if not all are from digital printers and I have found that heat sealing and dry mounting in one operation fails.
Why: Well heat seal film can stand a temperate of 90degc but dry mounting onto Foam core or block mounting you have to drop the temperature to as low as 78deg c and then 2.8 minutes because if you use 90deg c for 3mins you will have a problem with the emulsion lifting in an irregular pattern.
For most operations of Heat sealing and dry mounting I do two operations heat seal first drop the temperature and then dry mount.
For block mounts like you describe I always dry the block mount out in the press first as you will probably already know MDF is like a sponge and if it has over 60% of moisteure content the problems like you describe happen.
I hope this helps.
Ian Goodman
http://www.iangoodmanphotography.com.au
http://www.iangoodmanphotography.com.au
-
osgood
-
Jared Davis CPF, GCF
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Tue 11 Dec, 2007 8:45 pm
- Location: Brisbane, Australia
- Organisation: Www.jareddavis.com.au
- Interests: CMC's, Running
- Location: Brisbane, Australia
- Contact:
Hi John,
I have a few thoughts which are worth considering, and may/may not relate to your problem?
Dwell time changes based on the age and tension of the diaphragm of a Hot Press and the strength of the vacuum pump. A loose, saggy diaphragm will create more volume of air to suck out than a brand new one... thus the time to create vacuum pressure is longer. This can be a problem for bonding artwork at higher temperatures.. (ie: 90 degrees)
Thus depending on your pump, the age & saggyness of your diaphragm, everyone with a Hot Press will have slightly different dwell times and temperatures... that work for them.
I would guess that after 11 years of constant work, the diaphragm of your Hot Press has stretched considerably, and now getting a bit saggy -
A stretched diaphragm increases the volume of air it the pump has to suck out; which increases the time it takes to create a vacuum; which increase the time the DMT & heat seal laminate is under heat without being sealed flat against the artwork; which causes various mounting & laminating issues... !
Here are some solutions I know from first hand experience that work :
1. try reducing operating temperature to about 60-70 degrees (or even less!) and leave things in the Hot Press to bond much longer accordingly.... (to avoid things sticking and bonding before they have been flattened!)
2. fill the bottom of the diaphragm with a few sheets of 5mm foamboard to work on top of, which help consume excess space and reduce the amount of excess air the vacuum pump has to suck out - thus speeding up the time for the pump to create vacuum.
3. replace diaphragm with new one (very expensive)
Just some thoughts..
Cheers,
Jared
I have a few thoughts which are worth considering, and may/may not relate to your problem?
Dwell time changes based on the age and tension of the diaphragm of a Hot Press and the strength of the vacuum pump. A loose, saggy diaphragm will create more volume of air to suck out than a brand new one... thus the time to create vacuum pressure is longer. This can be a problem for bonding artwork at higher temperatures.. (ie: 90 degrees)
Thus depending on your pump, the age & saggyness of your diaphragm, everyone with a Hot Press will have slightly different dwell times and temperatures... that work for them.
I would guess that after 11 years of constant work, the diaphragm of your Hot Press has stretched considerably, and now getting a bit saggy -
A stretched diaphragm increases the volume of air it the pump has to suck out; which increases the time it takes to create a vacuum; which increase the time the DMT & heat seal laminate is under heat without being sealed flat against the artwork; which causes various mounting & laminating issues... !
Here are some solutions I know from first hand experience that work :
1. try reducing operating temperature to about 60-70 degrees (or even less!) and leave things in the Hot Press to bond much longer accordingly.... (to avoid things sticking and bonding before they have been flattened!)
2. fill the bottom of the diaphragm with a few sheets of 5mm foamboard to work on top of, which help consume excess space and reduce the amount of excess air the vacuum pump has to suck out - thus speeding up the time for the pump to create vacuum.
3. replace diaphragm with new one (very expensive)
Just some thoughts..
Cheers,
Jared
-
tightchamber
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Wed 23 Jan, 2008 7:36 pm
- Location: HUNTER VALLEY Australia
Hi, thanks for the ideas,
My initial problem is getting the heatseal to bond to photos that have came from a lab , I have no problems with anything that has came off a printer or adhesion to most surfaces in no time at all.
I have tried to heat seal the lab photos first and with the extra time in the press seems to turn the backing into grease proof paper and then we have problems with mounting the photo down as the extra bond absolutly refuses to stick to the photo.
I have tried sitting the photo on to most surfaces and end up with the same result a polished surface that nothing will stick to and the only way to remedy it is to remove the offending sheet of paper off the photo.
Its only recently I have came up with this problem and only with NEW Lab photos everything else is a snack.
Getting into the 2.5 min dwell time that seems to have eveyone a bit excited I have tested the extrabond on foam x, mdf, mattboard and have found adhesion has well and truely taken place and have never had a fail.
Hi ozgood , Havent seen a second hand HP for many years and my advice is to stay clear of the 350 .
cheers JOHN
My initial problem is getting the heatseal to bond to photos that have came from a lab , I have no problems with anything that has came off a printer or adhesion to most surfaces in no time at all.
I have tried to heat seal the lab photos first and with the extra time in the press seems to turn the backing into grease proof paper and then we have problems with mounting the photo down as the extra bond absolutly refuses to stick to the photo.
I have tried sitting the photo on to most surfaces and end up with the same result a polished surface that nothing will stick to and the only way to remedy it is to remove the offending sheet of paper off the photo.
Its only recently I have came up with this problem and only with NEW Lab photos everything else is a snack.
Getting into the 2.5 min dwell time that seems to have eveyone a bit excited I have tested the extrabond on foam x, mdf, mattboard and have found adhesion has well and truely taken place and have never had a fail.
Hi ozgood , Havent seen a second hand HP for many years and my advice is to stay clear of the 350 .
cheers JOHN
john butcher