working with thin mouldings

[atomgallery]

I had an idea which might be quite clever or really stupid, I suspect the latter as I havent seen it done. I am working with quite thin moulding, 35mm deep but only 13mm on the face and 8 or so on the base if thats the word. a 50x70cm landscape frame will have a tendency for the bottom wood to sag after a while. Short of making a sub frame of putting a strap of some kind from the top to the bottom I thought of adding a D ring to the bottom as well as putting one on each vertical and putting the hanging cord in a loop round all three. So the base would be supported in the middle. Anyone think of a disadvantage of doing this?

[Rainbow]

I wouldn’t be keen on fitting the extra D-ring in the middle. Apart from it looking strange and the bottom D-ring scraping the wall, I’d be concerned about the cord stretching over time and still leading to the frame sagging.

I was asked recently to see what I could do with a picture that was long and thin, with a narrow moulding, and was suffering from the sagging problem. I cut a new MDF backboard and stapled it to the frame itself, making sure that the frame was kept rigid during the fitting. The resultant picture was sturdy, with no sagging, and the back was neatly finished off with tape. It was quick, easy and economic to do. I’ve no idea if this is an accepted method of dealing with the problem, but like you, I’d be interested to know if there are any disadvantages of doing this for long, thin pictures that are maybe up to a metre long.

[Fruitini]

I agree. Using a rigid back like MDF and stapling through this would be a simple way to increase support. An 8mm moulding base sounds too slim for a D-ring for risk of splitting. I’d be avoiding any fixing on a frame that slim and rivet to the backboard instead. The ideal solution as you’ve mooted would be a subframe. You have plenty of frame depth available.

[vintage frames]

As already mentioned, a sub-frame is the more elegant solution to your problem.
You said that you only have a hand operated guillotine and some sort of simple v-nailer.
To allow for that, you could buy a simple mitre box and hand saw from Screwfix.

Use these to make up a simple sub-frame using either pine lengths from a DIY store or plain wood fillets from Rose&Hollis.
They'll even send you 1 length.
Use your guillotine to make good the mitres, if you wish.

[atomgallery]

a sub frame would obviously be best but not a lot of room as i have 12mm slips and too much work tbh. i agree the moulding is too thin to put hanging fixings on, it would prob split. what are the fixings you put in the back board called? so i can buy some and see if i can put them in without buying a machine for doing it, thanks for your help so far!

[atomgallery]

found them, bifurcated rivets!

[prospero]

I'd say riveting the d-rings to the back is the best way. Even use 2-hole ones on a bigger frame. That way all
the stress is taken on the back. Putting a piece of aluminium tape over the rivet 'tails' is a good idea.
Fixing the back to the frame would work but if the back is near a damp surface or in a damp environment
at any point it can swell and crack the frame corners.

* You can make a template from MDF with holes to facilitate drilling the rivet holes in the back. Speeds to job up.

[Justintime]

I only use the size of frame for small pieces with a sawtooth hanger at the top. It is really the weight of the glass that is the issue. I have had a number of skinny framed pieces in for reframing over the years. The issue being that as the bottom rail sags, it exposes the bottom of the glass and puts incredible strain on the mitres. My issue with this moulding is even with a Rose and Hollis dedicated subframe moulding, there is only 8mm to screw into and accuracy would be critical to not screw through the side face of the frame. The d rings and cord method has been discovered used in the past but is considered unsuitable for modern framing techniques. I have on occasion in the right circumstances cut some fillet wood and fixed with flat canvas offsets centre top to bottom but again with only 8mm this is still tricky. Personally I wouldn't be happy solely relying on staples through mdf as the staples may or may not have sufficient purchase and I like to think that my work is good for 20-30 years!
It is also important to understand the forces in action when hanging frames. Here are two illustrations that you might find useful.

[JFeig]

I agree with VintageFramer in that a sub-frame (internal strainer in North America) is the best solution.

The wood sub-frame doesn't have to be made from super thick timber. It can be as little as 12-13mm thick. It is also easier to toe-nail it into the 8mm thick main frame than a sheet of MDF. A better, more secure, method might be to use a 23ga wire nail straight through the sides of the frame into the strainer. The miniscule holes can be filled in.
A second comment is that hangers on the vertical rails without a cord or wire between them is a better idea as well since the forces are only in the vertical direction. The frame is thus hung with 2 hangers in the wall.

[Justintime]

HI Jerome, can you recommend suitable hangers for an 8mm frame? I struggle to find any hangers for the vertical that don't show at the sides.

[JKX]

Flangers are great, you need a little bit of space left in the rebate, ideally.


https://www.lionpic.co.uk/p/42525/Narro ... Frame-Pack


(Edit). I see lion don’t call them flangers any more - also find it amusing that they are made so the wire/cord can be nicely angled upwards and they’ve shown them with taut cord!

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[JKX]

I wouldn’t use a moulding that skinny for anything over maybe 12x10” , not a wooden one anyway. In fact I’d never even display a sample, just too easy to split and hardly enough room to even underpin.

I think prevention is better than cure - i.e. using a moulding up to the job by itself, which for 50x70cm, wouldn’t have to be that hefty anyway.

The best solution for larger skinny frames is aluminium, rebate spacers can be problematic as everything (with all but a few profiles) slides in to the frame instead of dropping in.

Nielsen do some very small but strong profiles which come veneered.


https://nielsenonlineshop.co.uk/Catalog ... 0000000000



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[atomgallery]

Thanks so much you all, some great stuff here even if I dont quite understand some of it!
the diagram of the angle of hanging cords very interesting, will affect how long I make the cord in the future definitely.

I will rivet the D rings to the back board, and have put a 6 x 5/8 screw angled through the back board into the moulding top and bottom, feels pretty solid, and much easier to remove than a staple if necessary.

[Not your average framer]

I have never been happy about fixing D rings to backing boards. Backing boards don't not remain stable supporting any significant load over time, when the load is supported in that way. O.K. screwing D rings into adequate strengh sub frames, even into adequate strength frames - no problem! A small sub frame constructed from (a sometimes relatively small wooden battern) is unlikely to break the bank, but also shows that we have thought about it and adequately addressed the issue. Job done!

[Justintime]

No I'd not be happy hanging a 50x70 piece from the backboard.

[JFeig]

Justintime, The hangers can be attached to the internal frame(wood strainer), close to the outer frame, if there is secure attachment to the two.

[Justintime]

Yes of course, it was the idea of hangers on 8mm that I was referring to.

[JKX]

Panic over - all sorted with a screw through the backing board - all our advice totes unnessiballs.

[atomgallery]

All advice gratefully received and digested! I will be making some bigger frames about twice the size and those will definitely have a subframe.

[prospero]

The elegant solution for making BIG subframes. Get some tongue and groove pine cladding. It's (relatively) cheap
and comes in 8mm thickness. Rip off the tongue side.
The clever bit is you can form half-lap joints without any fancy woodwork skills. Just use two layers, glued and screwed.
The laminated construction makes it very stable and the whole thing is very strong. With a bit of cunning you can engineer
a cleat system into the subframe by slicing the inner top rail down a tad to form a cavity which engages with a wall batten.
I have a 4x3' mirror in my bathroom hung like this. It has a ½" beech moulding around. It's solid as a rock.

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