Wood staining advice required

[NTG999]

I don't stain many frames and in the past haven't had any issues, but I'm trying to stain an oak veneered frame using Chestnut Spirit stain. I have tried applying with a cloth and the wet stain on the cloth dissolves the previous layer of stain, you can feel it go sticky and wiping it away causing a very patchy result. I contemplating doing each side in one 'wipe' but the issue becomes the corners.
The stain is dissolved with methylated spirit so I can wipe it off and start again. If I practice on bare wood it doesn't seem to be a problem, I'm wondering if the veneered wood doesn't absorb the stain? Any tips/advice?

[vintage frames]

That's easy - stop trying to use the Chestnut stains.
And, as you said, you were hoping to do it in one wipe. If only life was that simple.
This is called wood finishing and it doesn't really work like that.

Look here on ebay -
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/32527106282 ... _homepage

Buy the Golden Oak. It's a water-based stain so you can slosh it on however you like, leave it a few minutes then wipe off the excess.
If it looks too dark on your sample wood, then dilute it a bit with some water.
If you want it darker, go for more coats. Maybe even add in a little Dark Oak.

When its dry, wipe over with some shellac sanding sealer -
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/32555324701 ... wk6Fj~V7f

Dilute some sealer 50/50 with meths in a small bowl or saucer.
Fold some cotton into a pad, dip it into the shellac, squeeze it out a bit and wipe it over the stained surface.
Let it dry and now you can apply some wax, clear or oak stained.
If this does for you, then great.
If you feel you would like to improve the finish, then come back and we can go a bit deeper.

Further to your selection of a veneered oak moulding. The veneer might have some sort of finish on it that is inhibiting the stain.
Much better to use a solid oak moulding.

[NTG999]

Hi, that's great. Thank you for taking the time to comprehensively reply! I've ordered the items

[StevenG]

Hi

I find all this really interesting but I have a questions about the shellac sanding sealer. What exactly is the purpose of it? Is it to seal the paint? Provide a protective finish? Why would I need to add a wax etc afterwards? The hand finishing side of things is something I'd like to introduce but I'd want to make sure I knew what I was doing. I have a product from Polyvine, it's a wax finish varnish (dead flat) - would that be considered a suitable 'top coat'? i.e. a protective final layer to the paint? I know these are basic questions but I really want to understand the whole process much better & why we would use certain products in certain ways & situations

Cheers
Steven

[vintage frames]

Let's just say you've been to a Nat. Trust house and you've seen some really cool plain oak frames with a simple flat profile.
So you take a length of plain oak moulding and try to recreate that look.

First thing to do is always make the frame first.
When that's done, blunt the sharp pointy edge of the corners with a bit of sandpaper and rub over the whole frame with fine sandpaper to even down the surface.
Wipe it clean.
Now apply the wood stain. If it's oak, then use a simple Oak stain, apply liberally, let it soak in for a bit, then wipe away the excess.
When you do this you'll see how the wet wood takes up the colour of the stain and high-lights the markings on the oak, ie the little medullary rays which are unique to oak.
If you were to have added a little Van Dyke stain to the Oak stain, then that would have improved the 'look' of the oak by making it appear slightly older.

After your staining has dried, the wood will revert to a dull and muddy appearance.
To recover the pleasant appearance of the wood, you need to paint on two coats of diluted Shellac Sanding Sealer.
This will do three things -
The dried shellac is a natural varnish which will restore the wet look translucency of the stained oak.
It will provide a barrier sealant on the surface, so protecting the stain and preventing anything else from soaking into the wood.
Shellac sanding sealer also contains a lot of inert fillers which afford a degree of grain filling. This helps give the wood a flat glossy finish.

If you're going to use Sanding Sealer, ALWAYS buy from a wood finishing supplier, Restorate, John Penny, Prior Polishes etc.
DO NOT use from Screwfix or other. These contain additional heavy resins which can set like concrete.
You also need to use a good quality natural hair flat watercolour brush. Shellac dries very fast and requires a more professional tool to be applied evenly.

At this point you can rub on some wax with fine wire wool. Wax is a translucent product and when rubbed with a cloth, the friction softens the wax molecules on the surface and forces them to lie flat and this will give a translucent polish to the oak.

And all this a the very basic approach to wood finishing. There's a lot more you can do to give the wood a more solid and interesting appearance but your eyes will glaze over if I go on much further but anyone interested is always welcome to ask.

You also mentioned Polyvine wax varnish. I don't know.. Anything that has Poly in the title I tend to avoid.
Highly synthetic and plastic.
If the finish pleases you, then work on.
I'm sure it will do exactly what it says on the tin

[StevenG]

Cheers for that, I do find this very interesting but my current understanding is basically 0%. Is shellac sanding sealer a different product from just shellac?

At the moment I have something to finish with paint that the customer is bringing in (it's to match the doors or something). It's a chalk paint and they want the finish to be chalky/matt. If I were to use shellac on top of the paint would that add a gloss finish? I'm just thinking on the best way to protect the paint.



You also mention adding wax - what's the difference in using fine wire wool and a cloth?

[vintage frames]

Don't worry, no-one is born with this knowledge.
We all start out knowing nothing.

Shellac is sold in several solutions. Shellac Sanding Sealer is used as a base-coat and different shellac finishes or paints etc can be applied above it.
So, if you buy a 500ml bottle of Shellac Sanding Sealer from a wood finish supplier, together with some meths to dilute it 50/50, then you're on the right track.

If your customer is supplying you with chalk paint, then this alone has it's own durable finish. It might however show thumb prints if handled. You could give it a single coat of diluted sanding sealer. This will protect it from handling but will alter slightly the chalky finish.
You should test the result on some scrap timber.

I suggest using wire wool to apply the wax because the wire wool abrades and flattens the shellac surface which is essential to obtaining a polished finish. The cloth is only used to buff up the shine.

You can do this to the chalk paint without having to use any shellac. The effect will be to darken the colour and negate the chalky finish.
The surface will be protected however from further handling.
Once again, test it and see.

[StevenG]

Cheers! This is all great, btw is white spirit and meths interchangeable?

[prospero]

One thing that I found out the hard way... It's quite possible to stain/wax oak without the Shellac, but if you do
do not use steel wool to apply it. Tiny fragments of metal can get snagged in the pores and they will react with
the oak and produce black spots.

[vintage frames]

NO! White spirits and meths are NOT the same.

Only use meths when dealing with shellac products.
Use white spirits or turpentine when dealing with oil or wax finishes.

A useful tip to remember is that white spirit has no effect whatever on water or shellacked surfaces. This means you can wipe over a newly stained frame with some white spirit in order to see how it would look when further waxed etc.
The white spirit will then evaporate leaving behind no residue.

And Prospero is right, don't use wire wool on oak UNLESS you have already sealed it with shellac.