help again please

[pieinthesky]

Hi again

Another request for help!

I have been asked to frame a lage map of the world, measuring 1000mm x 1400mm. It is laminated, so doesn't need glass thank goodness, but has been rolled in a tube and would need to be flattened. I was thinking about 5mm adhesvice foamcore, but not sure if the laminate would stick. Would appreciate advice. Also the client wants a 'simple black frame'. As she has also given me a number of other items to frame and choosen is likely to come back again I would like to do my best.

Thanks in advance.

Anne

[Bill Henry]

We’ve had pretty good luck in mounting laminates using PMA.

Since the surface of laminates are so slick, we “roughen” up the reverse with a fine sand paper then clean the dust and any residual oils from it with lighter fluid (naphtha).

We’ve found that once you apply the PMA to the back of the laminate, it seems to bond better when we use a 100% cotton rag foam board. The surface of the rag seems to have a little more “tooth” and grabs better than the smooth stuff.

I am always nervous in trying to use a dry mount, heat press for fear that I’m gonna melt or cloud up the lamination.

You are wise not to use glass over a smooth laminate. You will most likely end up with “Newton’s Rings” – those pesky “oil spots” that appear at random over the surface.

[fionnuala]

with the terrible risk of sounding stupid, what is PMA???

i googled it and got everthing from pilates something association to publishing to marketing.

then i did a search on this site but it just showed up the abbreviation again.

so i said i better swallow my pride and just ask u!!!

[John]

PMA (Positionable Mounting Adhesive!).

Tutorial

[Roboframer]

Where to buy

[Steve N]

Hi JGF's
I would be very careful with trying to stick Large laminates down, in the past I have found that the laminates are two different plastics top and bottom, so on large maps or pictures when the laminate cools it might cool at different rates so that the laminated item might not lie flat, we just do not stick them down. we ask the customer to find out if the map is available un-laminated, then we can drymount and heatseal that instead.

Steve N

[Roboframer]

But PMA is not heat activated.

[Steve N]

I'm not saying that PMA is heat activated, what I meant to say is because of the different types of plastic in the laminate, if (when it was laminated with heat) cools at different rates it will not lie flat, so no matter what you stick it with you will run into trouble, we have had them dome shape, so if you try to stick them they end up with a crease in them.

Steve N

[fionnuala]

thanks guys.

excellent tutorial. where u find these things is beyond me!!

[osgood]

excellent tutorial. where u find these things is beyond me!!

I think it's probably the result of many years of learning from framing schools and teachers, seminars, workshops, trade shows, books, networking and reading forums, plus loads of experience!

Let's not forget exams like GCF, CPF and MCPF. When you do any of those, your knowledge will increase markedly over a short time!

I recommend all of the above methods to any newcomer to this industry!

[Spit]

Don't forget google, Ormond

[osgood]

Google is another option.
Some of the methods of learning also can give you info that is not very good, so always be aware of that and get second opinions.

One very important method I forgot is 'FACTS' at http://www.artfacts.org/
A great and reliable source for preservation framing info.

[Roboframer]

I'm not saying that PMA is heat activated, what I meant to say is because of the different types of plastic in the laminate, if (when it was laminated with heat) cools at different rates it will not lie flat,

OIC!

Never guess what I got in today?

a 40 x 47" laminated world map!

Gave the customer the options of me getting another, unlaminated (was from the Daily Telegraph - so maybe possible) so's I could dry mount it to artcare restore in four 'bites' in my press. Then spacers and glass/acrylic.

PMA - which I'd have to buy and not use again for donkeys, so I'd charge for the whole roll x2 plus my normal dry mount charge - as it's more difficult and time consuming - but no glass.

Didn't like the costs, so went for 'I'll take my chances' (of it not being flat)

Just a frame and backing; no glass. I'll attach it to the backing in some way just at the top.

[osgood]

I often use a particular self adhesive foamboard, that has a strong grab for laminated maps, posters, etc.

[prospero]

I remember getting a roll of PMA once. Never used it. Now I wonder where it is?

Anyhow, sudden brainstorm. What about that extremely sticky carpet tape? Cover a board and fix the laminated item to that. Not tried it on plastic, but I did do some velcro boards this way years ago and they are still sound. The tape is still sticky as ever. One advantage of this method is that you can peel the tape backing one strip at a time and smooth which makes handling big items easier.

Just a thought. Maybe worth doing a few tests....

[vfmarky]

Firstly may I say "Hi" to all of you. Very nice to be here, new kid on the block and all that...

Well, apart from a some other topics which struck chords, this one about mounting laminates has really hit the spot. I was given a laminated poster to frame on Friday. Moulding selected, frame made up and glass cut. I had planned to mount tomorrow but I got a big case of the 'whoas' after reading all the posts.
I just came back from the studio after laying the cut sheet of glass over the job. No Newton's Rings apparent (is this an atmospheric thing depending on the hanging conditions?), but another monster has reared its head. This poster is printed both sides and, you've guessed it, I got the dreaded show- through. OK I can fix that by using a black mount-board but who makes a black faced self-adhesive board? I've got some Studio Tack somewhere (what's the shelf life of that product?).
Also (pause for breath), the poster itself has some creases in the (rather thin) laminate which I've said to dear customer might not disappear altogether.
What to do? What to do? I hate giving up, but I won't turn in a job that's not up standard...

[osgood]

I was given a laminated poster to frame on Friday. Moulding selected, frame made up and glass cut..........after laying the cut sheet of glass over the job. No Newton's Rings apparent (is this an atmospheric thing depending on the hanging conditions?),

Welcome vfmarky,
No it's nothing to do with atmosphere! It's two glossy surfaces in contact with each other!
Laminated posters do not need glass. Think about it this way.....what is the purpose of glass? .....to protect the surface of the poster from dirt, dust, moisture, etc, etc, etc. What is the purpose of laminating a poster.......yep, the same as glass! We don't need two products doing the same job!

Always remember that laminating should only be used on easily replaceable items as it is not reversible!!!

but another monster has reared its head. This poster is printed both sides and, you've guessed it, I got the dreaded show- through. ...............
Also (pause for breath), the poster itself has some creases in the (rather thin) laminate which I've said to dear customer might not disappear altogether.

These two issues are not really fixable! They existed when the poster was brought to you and the customer needs to understand that you are not a magician!

[realhotglass]

Laminated posters do not need glass.

Ah, but it might Ormond . . .
Laminate doesn't block UV light !

Disclaimer - Some expensive laminate films might block UV, but I have things at the shed that have definitely faded with normal laminating.

Same UV issues when using Mylar encapsulation, it doesn't block anything of UV light to any significance.

[osgood]

Les,

There could be an argument for that, but if a poster had some value, it shouldn't have been laminated in the first place.

I was assuming that the poster in question had little value, but if it was treasured by the customer UV glass could be used on it, but with a spacer preferably.

As a general rule for the majority of laminated posters, glass is not necessary!

[realhotglass]

True to most extent, Ormond . . .
But if a client wanted the laminated poster to look good for years to come (even a cheap one), it would need UV protection.
You're right of course, best to avoid laminating then on the first place, and go straight to uv glass or acrylic.

Looks like there are some laminates available with UV inhibitors http://www.alclaminating.com/PDF's/Digikote.pdf * need to copy / paste the full link to your browser by the looks * . . . according to their chart, the Digikote does block maybe 80% UVa, which is the important one for framers (UVb is blocked by window glass, so likely this isn't an issue except for external displays).

Hadn't know about these before, just Googled - uv laminated film - and that was the 3rd link, the only really relevant link on the first page of results.