How do I remove creases from poster

[Tim Hoy]

I've been framing for about 3 years now to keep the costs down on sales of my photographic work. The big stuff is normally done by an outside agency, but I had a request by the envorinmentally-conscious clients to use recycled solid oak wood from their old kitchen floor for the mouldings. The resultant frame looks lovely - thanks to help from a mate with a bench planer and heavy duty router, but it's the first time I have had such a large aperture to fill on the mount board.

The poster sized image keeps sagging and I want to know how to apply tension and remove the creases. I used good quality archive tape on the image and kept it tight during construction but it sagged nevertheless - could it be because the photographic paper the lab used is too thin?

I'm showing my inadequacies here I know, but I'd love some advice (apart from take it to a professional - which is what my lovely wife suggested). The image is 20" x 30"

[kev@frames]

hi Tim, welcome to the forum.
what exactly do you mean by sagging? is it simply not staying flat? or is it cockling or rippled?
you dont want to apply any tension at all, (eg you dont want to try and "pull it tight") because as the mountboard expands and contracts it will make it even worse.
A pic might help next time you have a camera handy.
kev

[prospero]

Hi Tim.

Did you apply the tape all around the poster? I say this because people tend to get the notion that his will keep the paper tight and therefore, flat.
In fact it has just the opposite effect. If the paper expands through moisture absorbsion, it has nowhere to go and so forms ripples. The classic method is the t-hinge: two tabs of tape on the top edge, which are anchored to a backing board with two more bits of tape crosswise. On large pieces, one of the tabs can be engineered to be able to move slightly. (Not easy to demostrate without drawing it). The fixings should always be weaker than the art. Done this way, the paper can move about laterally and should never cockle. Of course this is an huge generalisation.
There are lots of factors to consider, the main one being the type of paper.

Dri-mounting is an option. But the general rule is never to do this with anything you can't replace. And trying to stick down a piece that has already gone wavy can have catastophic results.

[Moglet]

Hi Tim, and welcome to you!

You mention in your post that there are already creases in the photographic paper. I find this is a common problem with images that come in to me for framing on lighter photographic papers, regardless of the size of the piece in question. Putting the image into a heat/vacuum press can help, but in my experience doesn't cure the problem completely, especially if the creases have any depth worth mentioning. (For future reference, I find that heavier photographic media (250gsm plus) is less likely to crease than lighter media.)

If the image is already creased, you have two options: get a reprint, or dry-mount. As Prospero correctly advises, for irreplaceable images it is not normally a recommended route, as the majority of dry-mounting techniques are not reversible, and therefore affect the value/conservation of the work being mounted. However, if you know someone who offers dry mounting onto Bainbridge Artcare Restore, this is a reversible dry mounting method that may be worth your while considering.

[Tim Hoy]

Thank you all. Very helpful. The work is my own - a large portrait print from my lab which I can reproduce fairly cheaply. It arrived like all large format work in a tube, but creased a day after I mounted it. I've been a professional photographer since 1981 but have only really started framing since everything got so cutthroat and DIY of previously contracted out services is an increasingly common occurrence. Everywhere I look the term "modernisation" appears to be applied to what are really "cuts" and our industry is no exeption. I shouldn't moan as I love my work, but my frames are nowhere near as good as my images - anyone fancy a partnership deal? I'm based in NW London.

[Moglet]

I shouldn't moan as I love my work...

It shows! Just been visiting your website.

I particularly liked some of your informal wedding shots, especially the laced back of the wedding dress. I thought that was absolutely beautiful, and as unusual and special as the day would be for the bride!

Also, I really liked the shot where you caught the little doggie 'mid-flight'!

I'm based in NW London.

Noticed that Brent Cross got honourable mention. This brought back memories. My mother, rest her soul, used to live in the place (my parents used to run a pub in Cricklewood for 12 years, many moons ago.) Whereabouts are you located?

[Tim Hoy]

Kind words Aine - thanks. I'm based in Willesden, but occasionally play harmonica with a blues band in Cricklewood Broadway/Kilburn High Road to be precise. I'm not a professional musician, but love to jam. The event in Brent Cross was also music based - designed to get people singing in public and the choir that Brent Music used was taken from a selection of local schools. It was a lovely day and I think my photos did justic to the event - although I can't share them online with you as most of the subjects were children. Quite a rigmarole with all the CRB checks etc, but the parents loved the images of their children and kept me busy collating and printing for days afterwards.

[Moglet]

The event in Brent Cross was also music based - designed to get people singing in public and the choir that Brent Music used was taken from a selection of local schools.

When I was a wee thing, I went to primary school in Dollis Hill Lane, and used to take part in the joint schools choir projects. They were great fun, and it's really good to hear that they are still going!

I went to secondary school in St. Mick's Grammar, North Finchley, and many of my pals lived in Willesden. Spent many happy days in your neck of the woods! My Dad was the landlord of The Cricklewood Hotel (the big pub on The Broadway a few blocks down from the bus garage).

[osgood]

but my frames are nowhere near as good as my images -

Tim,
This statement is extremely important!
Any type of artwork can be highly enhanced or ruined by the framing! A question for you - does your photography deserve to be framed well?
A really good framer can do that for you. Really good harmonious framing designs can help to sell your photographs and it can improve the appearance so that you should be able to add the cost of the framing to the sale price without any buyer resistance.

It appears from your question that you may have been mounting your photographs incorrectly. Photographs are generally easily repleaceable and so they can be dry mounted.

Your wife is very wise!

[Tim Hoy]

Your wife is very wise!

Yes and always right. That's why I married her. I know my place.

[Not your average framer]

I'm showing my inadequacies here I know, but I'd love some advice (apart from take it to a professional - which is what my lovely wife suggested).

Hi Tim,

Have you had any training yet? It might be all that you need to get things sorted.

[prospero]

Really good harmonious framing designs can help to sell your photographs and it can improve the appearance so that you should be able to add the cost of the framing to the sale price without any buyer resistance.

This is what I am constantly telling artists who have ambitions to sell their work. Better not to frame work at all than shove it in something crude. It creates the impression that if the artist has no respect for his own work, why should the prospective customer? Most people do have good taste despite the rumours.....
Remember, a good design does not always mean expensive.

[Tim Hoy]

Have you had any training yet? It might be all that you need to get things sorted.

I'm going to enrol on a few courses to improve my skills. I may have given the impression that my frames to date have been done without any care for quality - this is not the case, but as you will see from the start of this thread, my experience in larger work is extremely limited. If I had been content with anything less than that which I'd hang in my own home, then I woiuldn't have joined the forum. I really appreciate everyone's frank and helpful feedback. The moulding on this work salvaged from a recycled solid oak floor is lovely - mainly due to the skills of my joiner friend. I'm now going to learn how to dry mount, but have farmed the job out on this occasion to a full time framer in Wembley who recommended this forum to me when I first went for advice. Thanks again everyone.

[Roboframer]

I love my work, but my frames are nowhere near as good as my images - anyone fancy a partnership deal?

'Partnership' is a bit of a scary word but I think it would be good if you could find a really good framer that you could sub stuff out to that you cannot handle easily or just cannot be bothered to handle - whilst you get on with what you are obviously good at getting on with.

Why not case a few framing joints around you - see what they say about methods and pricing - then tell us what they say - see if we can vet them!

I love my (framing) work too, and now and again I'll sell a photo or two that I've taken - wouldn't take a wedding on though!

[Moglet]

I'm going to enrol on a few courses to improve my skills.

When you train in dry mounting techniques, Tim, be sure to ask your trainer to show you the different types of materials available. The textures of the boards can greatly affect the final look of images mounted onto them, and some can produce an undesirable "orange peel" effect, particularly in photographic media.

For quick work, Arqadia's Fastmount permanent boards are quite good for cold mounting - they have a very high grab, so care is advised in positioning the image as once it sticks, it tends to stay stuck!

Also, and especially for larger items, ask your customers about where they will be displaying their work. If it's likely to be near a source of heat (strong sunlight, radiator, etc.) I would not advocate using self-adhesive boards, as the heat can soften the adhesive. Heat press mounting would be a better option for images sited in such locations, IMO.

There is a useful book on mounting and laminating available from Lion, and also Vivien Kistler's book "Picture Framing" is good for learning basic hinging techniques.

The moulding on this work salvaged from a recycled solid oak floor is lovely ...

Be sure and post a piccie when you have it done. We'd love to see the finished product! (And thankyou for the trip down Memory Lane! )

[Merlin]

If you want to mount photographs that you have done and you have not got access to a hot/vacuum press then try PVA.

Get the cheap 4 " sponge roller kit from Woollies.

Mix the PVA 75part with 25 parts water, roller onto Super Smooth board, place photograph on top and use a hard roller and there you go.

Just make sure that the edge of the roller does not come into contact with the PVA that is pushed out, otherwise you will have nice neat 'tram lines' across your photograph.

I use a piece of mountboard fall out placed on top of the photograph before I use the roller. That way the bevel lays up against the edge of the photograph and the roller is kept away from the PVA.

[Tim Hoy]

Thank you all again for your very helpful advice. I went to see the guy in Wembley (Park Royal to be precise) and despite great statements about their dry mounting expertise, when I arrived the representative at the desk said "we don't do dry mounting - sorry". This is doubly disappointing as the person I first spoke to was very helpful indeed and referred me to this forum. I have to say that the framer's forum has been a breath of fresh air with such constructive and non-judgemental feedback.

The problem is that I now have a rapidly approaching deadline for my work which has been paid for (including a £50 donation to the Herts MS treatment centre) and a big presentation of the framed image to the recipient by his mother (AKA my client). She's seen the work and is overjoyed with it, but I remain very apprehensive about the lack of dry mounting and inherent folds/creases in the image. It takes a bright light from the right direction to see the flaws, but I'm very fussy that my work in its current form is sub standard.

I have gone to my lab and printed off another A2 print and am sifting through directories, yellow pages, Google et al trying to find a dry mounting service. I didn't realise that there were so many dry cleaners within 20 miles of my home (as that's what keeps coming up on line) but so far I've been unsuccessful in securing a suitable service provider. Any ideas Aine as you know the area? I took a photo of the work in it's creased form with the intention of showing a before and after on this forum, but the photo actually looks lovely. I'm not being over critical though. I'm certain that any of the other people posting on this thread would agree it's just not up to standard.

I can travel up to about 30km from NW London, but obviously the closer to home the better. Any takers?

[Moglet]

Errrrr....we left the area at the beginning of '81, Tim!

However, all is not lost. I've just had a scoot around yell.com and come up with a framers called Thou Art in Hampstead. They're based in Mill Lane, so they'll be a doddle to get to. Click here for the contact page on their website. If you look on the "Retail" page on the site, it lists all of their services, including dry mounting!

Hopefully, they will be able to help you meet your deadline, and maybe you'll post a pic here when it's done!

[Moglet]

PS.... For future reference, Tim, I used "dry mounting" as the service criterion in yell.com and it was able to target framers offering the service.

[Tim Hoy]

Thanks Aine. I have to admit that I didn't try Yell, although the yellow pages were pretty unhelpful. I'll give them a try in Hampstead. Thank you again.