I was speaking recently to a builder friend. The lowest paid employee on his payroll is a labourer at £7.50 per hour.
I have had a quick look at online jobs and haven't been able to find a framer's job paying more than £6.00 per hour and most seem to be at minimum wage. The jobs I have been looking at are in bespoke framing shops. Factory work chopping photoframes all day is a different situation and possibly the subject of a different discussion.
If this is the situation in framing, I'm afraid our industry is in a very sad state.
Do you think framers are worth more than £6.00 per hour?
I do.
What is fair pay for a framer?
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mathematician
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Mon 15 May, 2006 5:12 pm
- Location: Ireland
when you think that web designers can charge up to £50 an hour for creating a crafted piece of work I don't see why a skilled craftsman like a framer can't expect more than £6 an hour.
Comes back to the fact that we don't charge enough for the work that we do.
I left the catering trade for framing - frying pan to fire really with regards to pay.
Comes back to the fact that we don't charge enough for the work that we do.
I left the catering trade for framing - frying pan to fire really with regards to pay.
Ive just worked out my window cleaner earns about £18 per hour. I think the difference here is that he charges 4 people £4.50 per 1/4 hour which makes it seem more reasonable.
Rather puts things into perspective.
Rather puts things into perspective.
Mick
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The impossible I can do today,
Miracles take a little longer
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The impossible I can do today,
Miracles take a little longer
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Roboframer
Framers are definitely worth more than £6 ph. But unless already qualified/experienced and GOOD at it - which is unlikely, then you have to start somewhere.
Picking the right person can be a nightmare, someone may come over well on paper and at interview, but when you train your own staff from scratch, it's like a 3 - 6 month interview, or trial period.
I pay my framer £15,000 pa, with incentive to increase to £20,000 and beyond.
Expect wages to be about one third of turnover.
Picking the right person can be a nightmare, someone may come over well on paper and at interview, but when you train your own staff from scratch, it's like a 3 - 6 month interview, or trial period.
I pay my framer £15,000 pa, with incentive to increase to £20,000 and beyond.
Expect wages to be about one third of turnover.
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mathematician
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Mon 15 May, 2006 5:12 pm
- Location: Ireland
John
I would say £15000 pa is not a high wage for your location, considering cost of living and property prices etc.
Probably the equivalent of £12000 in N.I. , where I live.
The problem, as Sarah said, is that framers don't charge enough. However, that may be expressing the problem too simply. As I said before, any framer can charge as little as he wants for his services and the rest of us have neither the power nor the right to dictate otherwise.
While I have been in the framing business I have seen many low cost framers come and go. The most recent example was a man who was so busy he was regularly working 16 hour days. He went out of business a few months back – couldn’t pay his suppliers and had his CMC repossessed. He was so cheap it was obvious that this was going to happen but he lasted about a year and of course during that time took business from other framers.
His business was in a major town on the High Street and he believed that the best way to conduct his business was to undercut everyone around him.
At any given time there are many framers just like him with some framing skills and no business skills and because framing has relatively low start-up costs I am sure that this situation will persist.
This particular man was an extreme example but nevertheless a good example of the problem which is prevalent in our industry.
A much more insidious problem is the competent framer who still believes that the way to success is to be cheaper than other framers. This type of framer can struggle on for a lifetime on a meagre income and all the time dragging our industry down.
To give an example. One of my customers, an artist, had occasion to meet a leading member of the FATG. He asked her who did her framing and when she told him he said, “I can do it cheaper”.
This is a man who is supposedly trying to promote and develop our industry yet behaves like any other cut price framer.
His behaviour demonstrated that he has absolutely no understanding of the professional framing industry. My customer doesn’t come to me because I am cheap. She comes because she knows she will get quality work and excellent service. His market trader tactics were wasted on her.
I don’t believe it is possible to standardize prices or even raise prices across the industry because there will always be some idiot who will say “I can do it cheaper” but I do believe it is possible for those top quality framers who truly understand the business and who operate with integrity to set themselves apart from the rest and command very respectable prices for their work.
It would require an organization other than the FATG to achieve this and I would welcome the opportunity to discuss this with anyone else who may be interested.
I would say £15000 pa is not a high wage for your location, considering cost of living and property prices etc.
Probably the equivalent of £12000 in N.I. , where I live.
The problem, as Sarah said, is that framers don't charge enough. However, that may be expressing the problem too simply. As I said before, any framer can charge as little as he wants for his services and the rest of us have neither the power nor the right to dictate otherwise.
While I have been in the framing business I have seen many low cost framers come and go. The most recent example was a man who was so busy he was regularly working 16 hour days. He went out of business a few months back – couldn’t pay his suppliers and had his CMC repossessed. He was so cheap it was obvious that this was going to happen but he lasted about a year and of course during that time took business from other framers.
His business was in a major town on the High Street and he believed that the best way to conduct his business was to undercut everyone around him.
At any given time there are many framers just like him with some framing skills and no business skills and because framing has relatively low start-up costs I am sure that this situation will persist.
This particular man was an extreme example but nevertheless a good example of the problem which is prevalent in our industry.
A much more insidious problem is the competent framer who still believes that the way to success is to be cheaper than other framers. This type of framer can struggle on for a lifetime on a meagre income and all the time dragging our industry down.
To give an example. One of my customers, an artist, had occasion to meet a leading member of the FATG. He asked her who did her framing and when she told him he said, “I can do it cheaper”.
This is a man who is supposedly trying to promote and develop our industry yet behaves like any other cut price framer.
His behaviour demonstrated that he has absolutely no understanding of the professional framing industry. My customer doesn’t come to me because I am cheap. She comes because she knows she will get quality work and excellent service. His market trader tactics were wasted on her.
I don’t believe it is possible to standardize prices or even raise prices across the industry because there will always be some idiot who will say “I can do it cheaper” but I do believe it is possible for those top quality framers who truly understand the business and who operate with integrity to set themselves apart from the rest and command very respectable prices for their work.
It would require an organization other than the FATG to achieve this and I would welcome the opportunity to discuss this with anyone else who may be interested.
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markw
mathematician - whilst I agree 100% with your comments you just cant "fix" prices - it would be as illegal for us if we formed a group as it has just proved to be for indipendent schools who tried to do just what your saying - all agree a price. We have to follow our own agenda - mine, like yours is to sell quality not quantity. Turnover is vanity - profit is sanity.
We all compete at the end of the day - it may not be cost -it can be delivery times - quality etc - we all have a desire to see our order books full - the reality is cashflow and when times get tough we all start chasing any job we can get.
We all compete at the end of the day - it may not be cost -it can be delivery times - quality etc - we all have a desire to see our order books full - the reality is cashflow and when times get tough we all start chasing any job we can get.
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mathematician
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Mon 15 May, 2006 5:12 pm
- Location: Ireland
Mark
From my previous post:
As I said before, any framer can charge as little as he wants for his services and the rest of us have neither the power nor the right to dictate otherwise.
I'm sorry if I misled you but I am definitely not talking about price fixing.
If you take the accountancy profession as an example of what I mean.
There are many different types of accountants all charging different rates.
Chartered accountants have taken additional exams and you would normally expect to pay more for the services of a Chartered accountant.
That does not mean that all Chartered accountants have a agreed a fixed rate for their services. They are free to set their own fees but there is an expectation by the customer that their fees will be higher than others and their standards will be higher than others.
In the framing industry customers frequently believe a framer is a framer which we both know is not the case.
I have worked very hard to build a framing business with a reputation for quality and service and I know others like you have done the same. We have done this as individuals. Do you not think there may be some merit in promoting ourselves collectively?
From my previous post:
As I said before, any framer can charge as little as he wants for his services and the rest of us have neither the power nor the right to dictate otherwise.
I'm sorry if I misled you but I am definitely not talking about price fixing.
If you take the accountancy profession as an example of what I mean.
There are many different types of accountants all charging different rates.
Chartered accountants have taken additional exams and you would normally expect to pay more for the services of a Chartered accountant.
That does not mean that all Chartered accountants have a agreed a fixed rate for their services. They are free to set their own fees but there is an expectation by the customer that their fees will be higher than others and their standards will be higher than others.
In the framing industry customers frequently believe a framer is a framer which we both know is not the case.
I have worked very hard to build a framing business with a reputation for quality and service and I know others like you have done the same. We have done this as individuals. Do you not think there may be some merit in promoting ourselves collectively?
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markw
Mathemetician - Yes! I do think we should promote ourselves collectively - and I think we should do that through the FATG. I wont put down my thoughts about the FATG again - you can find plenty on earlier postings - but its a fact that they are the only organised body who can realistically change the framers status - you could ask what the hell have they been doing for the last 100+ years to let things slip so badly and thats a whole new discussion.
We need to see framers who are commited to professional standards standing up and doing something to change the way things are done. I can say that in my area we have a couple of framers who have decided to do so and have drastically changed the way many framers work - Chris Smith of Creative Framing in Cirencester almost single handedly changed the Cotswold branch from dead to thriving and persuaded many local framers to take the GCF - most of my competition localy are GCFs and working to the same standards as me - most are charging about the same amount - almost proves the point that if you raise the standards of the industry then prices will go up. In Bath, Martin Tracie has shown us all that selling what you do and doing it well is the way to create a thriving business - he never misses an opportunity to promote his business and that helps to boost the image of what we all do as framers.
We need to see framers who are commited to professional standards standing up and doing something to change the way things are done. I can say that in my area we have a couple of framers who have decided to do so and have drastically changed the way many framers work - Chris Smith of Creative Framing in Cirencester almost single handedly changed the Cotswold branch from dead to thriving and persuaded many local framers to take the GCF - most of my competition localy are GCFs and working to the same standards as me - most are charging about the same amount - almost proves the point that if you raise the standards of the industry then prices will go up. In Bath, Martin Tracie has shown us all that selling what you do and doing it well is the way to create a thriving business - he never misses an opportunity to promote his business and that helps to boost the image of what we all do as framers.
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mathematician
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Mon 15 May, 2006 5:12 pm
- Location: Ireland
Mark
I think we are in agreement for the most part about the framing industry.
Where we differ is with regard to the FATG. I have a number of fundamental problems with the FATG not least of which is the fact that it claims to represent framers, moulding suppliers, artists, publishers and others.
At some level there has got to be a conflict of interests.
Leaving my views of the FATG aside, I believe there is a need for a trade organisation.
From my viewpoint I have 3 options:
1. FATG
2. PPFA
3. form a new organisation
I haven’t decided which route to follow. Living in Ireland, I probably have a slightly different perspective from English framers – both FATG and PPFA are based outside my country of residence.
I know it wasn’t your intention but you have actually steered me away from the FATG. While I was reading your post about the efforts of some framers to promote the industry it occurred to me that the FATG was benefiting greatly by the hard work of those framers and any organisation would benefit by having those people as members.
The question is: Does the FATG deserve such members? I’m not so sure.
I think we are in agreement for the most part about the framing industry.
Where we differ is with regard to the FATG. I have a number of fundamental problems with the FATG not least of which is the fact that it claims to represent framers, moulding suppliers, artists, publishers and others.
At some level there has got to be a conflict of interests.
Leaving my views of the FATG aside, I believe there is a need for a trade organisation.
From my viewpoint I have 3 options:
1. FATG
2. PPFA
3. form a new organisation
I haven’t decided which route to follow. Living in Ireland, I probably have a slightly different perspective from English framers – both FATG and PPFA are based outside my country of residence.
I know it wasn’t your intention but you have actually steered me away from the FATG. While I was reading your post about the efforts of some framers to promote the industry it occurred to me that the FATG was benefiting greatly by the hard work of those framers and any organisation would benefit by having those people as members.
The question is: Does the FATG deserve such members? I’m not so sure.
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markw
Mathematician - Thats made me think! Others have tried to set up framers organisations and they all seem to have withered on the vine. I have the same concerns regarding a trade body that represents competing sides of the same industry. I think the current lack of joined up thinking regarding limited editions shows that conflict very well. Having said that it has gone a long way towards establishing a formal qualification route and defined standards. I am sure we could debate for years the detail of these - but the reality is that they are there and as far as I am concerned I will do my best to work with them.
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Roboframer
So, what IS a fair wage then? Anyone else care to spill what they pay?
No, Mathematician £15,000 pa is not a high wage - but my framer used to have a security job - CRAP pay, then he got a job as a delivery driver, £12,000 pa. I matched that, for fewer hours and much less stress, and then increased and will continue to increase his wages as his abilities do and his productivity does, also as inflation does, but not as house prices do!
I'm already paying above the average, according to FATG surveys, and, for the type of work in this area. For example, looking in this weeks local paper, the best paid job is for a senior legal assistant £26,000 - £29,000 PRO RATA! All qualifications re'd plus lots of experience.
Or he could be a "quality mentor" for £17 - 18,000 - NVQ level 3 or above in chidcare, teaching etc etc. Experience of working at supervisory level etc etc etc.
Then there's a position for a premises officer in a school. £15,825 - skills in MANAGEMENT, maintenance, DIY and gardening required.
I would say that that is a tougher job, with far more responsibilities than moving around a workbench all day turning long bits of wood into square ones and cutting holes in cardborad! (Much more to it I know, but you get my drift I hope)
I know my pay is fair and I know my prices are too, I know what my local market can stand, and again, I know from FATG surveys that I am WELL on the plus side of average, and so I should be!
The average house price around here is £206,000. It breaks down as follows - Detached £305,000 - Semi £197,000 Terraced £170,000 - Flat, £120,000.
So let's go for the flat - divide that by 3.5 - which is what most building societys like - and we are looking at needing to earn almost £34,300 pa. That is not an unrealistic amount for me to pay the right person. My current framer has what it takes, but is some way away from that at the moment.
Most young people CANNOT get a foot on the property ladder down here, unless it is with two incomes. Wages cannot be based on property prices, they can ONLY be based on what the job is actually worth.
So - come on then - how DO I compare? There seems an unwillingness to spill info like that here, and that was the origibal question - OK not how much do you pay - but what is a fair wage?
PS - we pay our senior shop assistant £7.50 per hour - NO-ONE pays that much for shop work around here. Supervisors at TK Max don't get that.
No, Mathematician £15,000 pa is not a high wage - but my framer used to have a security job - CRAP pay, then he got a job as a delivery driver, £12,000 pa. I matched that, for fewer hours and much less stress, and then increased and will continue to increase his wages as his abilities do and his productivity does, also as inflation does, but not as house prices do!
I'm already paying above the average, according to FATG surveys, and, for the type of work in this area. For example, looking in this weeks local paper, the best paid job is for a senior legal assistant £26,000 - £29,000 PRO RATA! All qualifications re'd plus lots of experience.
Or he could be a "quality mentor" for £17 - 18,000 - NVQ level 3 or above in chidcare, teaching etc etc. Experience of working at supervisory level etc etc etc.
Then there's a position for a premises officer in a school. £15,825 - skills in MANAGEMENT, maintenance, DIY and gardening required.
I would say that that is a tougher job, with far more responsibilities than moving around a workbench all day turning long bits of wood into square ones and cutting holes in cardborad! (Much more to it I know, but you get my drift I hope)
I know my pay is fair and I know my prices are too, I know what my local market can stand, and again, I know from FATG surveys that I am WELL on the plus side of average, and so I should be!
The average house price around here is £206,000. It breaks down as follows - Detached £305,000 - Semi £197,000 Terraced £170,000 - Flat, £120,000.
So let's go for the flat - divide that by 3.5 - which is what most building societys like - and we are looking at needing to earn almost £34,300 pa. That is not an unrealistic amount for me to pay the right person. My current framer has what it takes, but is some way away from that at the moment.
Most young people CANNOT get a foot on the property ladder down here, unless it is with two incomes. Wages cannot be based on property prices, they can ONLY be based on what the job is actually worth.
So - come on then - how DO I compare? There seems an unwillingness to spill info like that here, and that was the origibal question - OK not how much do you pay - but what is a fair wage?
PS - we pay our senior shop assistant £7.50 per hour - NO-ONE pays that much for shop work around here. Supervisors at TK Max don't get that.
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Roboframer
This made me ask myself is my framer a skilled craftsman? Come to that am I? I don't own any chisels or even a plane.sarah wrote:when you think that web designers can charge up to £50 an hour for creating a crafted piece of work I don't see why a skilled craftsman like a framer can't expect more than £6 an hour.
Well, no he is not - he does not do washlines, he does NOTHING with hand tools, unless you include the odd bit of glass nibbling, putting screws in, etc.
No carving, no gilding, no fabric-wrapping, no elaborate hand finishing.
The most difficult thing he does is lace needlework and stitch football shirts, not difficult at all. The hardest part of his job and the thing he finds most difficult, is picking the best mount and frame combination. I picture it INSTANTLY.
The wages advertised are starting wages, and I do not blame some for making those starting wages the absolute minimum, it COSTS MONEY to train from scratch and it takes time. It also takes time to get employees with previous experience around to your own way of doing things.
There is no comparison between what someone running their own business charges and what an employee gets paid. The employee has no overheads.
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mathematician
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Mon 15 May, 2006 5:12 pm
- Location: Ireland
Hi John
Great to hear from you. I was beginning to think you’d gone on holiday.
I pay my framer £6.50 per hour. He’s 19 years old and has been with me 7 months so still learning. I intend to give pay rises on the basis of productivity and skill development.
In my opinion £7.50 per hour is fair pay for a competent framer trained to the level where he can handle 90% of framing jobs without asking for my advice.
I had a great deal of difficulty finding my present framer. When you advertise a job at £6.00 per hour you don’t attract the crème de la crème. I can’t remember how many people I hired and fired a short time later (4 hours in one case).
Is my framer a skilled craftsman? No he isn’t. I’m the man that said “any idiot can learn to frame” and I meant it. How long does it take to show someone how to cut and join frames and cut and clean a piece of glass etc.?
The answer is: “not very long”.
I know it sounds like a contradiction – I couldn’t find a decent framer and yet any idiot can frame. It isn’t. I never fired anyone because they couldn’t make a frame, cut a mount or a piece of glass. I fired them because of wastage – either time or materials. And in my experience the amount of time or materials wasted by an employee is directly proportional to his/her attitude. It has absolutely nothing to do with skill or intelligence.
So to take John's lead, "What about the rest of you?"
There have been over 400 views of this thread and 5 participants.
Does no-one else have an opinion or is it just easier to sit back and watch
others do the running?
Great to hear from you. I was beginning to think you’d gone on holiday.
I pay my framer £6.50 per hour. He’s 19 years old and has been with me 7 months so still learning. I intend to give pay rises on the basis of productivity and skill development.
In my opinion £7.50 per hour is fair pay for a competent framer trained to the level where he can handle 90% of framing jobs without asking for my advice.
I had a great deal of difficulty finding my present framer. When you advertise a job at £6.00 per hour you don’t attract the crème de la crème. I can’t remember how many people I hired and fired a short time later (4 hours in one case).
Is my framer a skilled craftsman? No he isn’t. I’m the man that said “any idiot can learn to frame” and I meant it. How long does it take to show someone how to cut and join frames and cut and clean a piece of glass etc.?
The answer is: “not very long”.
I know it sounds like a contradiction – I couldn’t find a decent framer and yet any idiot can frame. It isn’t. I never fired anyone because they couldn’t make a frame, cut a mount or a piece of glass. I fired them because of wastage – either time or materials. And in my experience the amount of time or materials wasted by an employee is directly proportional to his/her attitude. It has absolutely nothing to do with skill or intelligence.
So to take John's lead, "What about the rest of you?"
There have been over 400 views of this thread and 5 participants.
Does no-one else have an opinion or is it just easier to sit back and watch
others do the running?
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mathematician
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Mon 15 May, 2006 5:12 pm
- Location: Ireland
So you can only call yourself a craftsman if you own a chisel and plane?Roboframer wrote: This made me ask myself is my framer a skilled craftsman? Come to that am I? I don't own any chisels or even a plane.
I agreed with the sums guy with regards to any idiot being able to frame but as I said not every idiot can do it well.
I believe that anyone who puts heart and soul into their business and truely cares about the job they are doing is a craftsman.
So Robo am I a craftsman sure as hell I am. I have use the tools that have been given to me to create a bespoke piece of framing for my customer. I have put itelligent thought into how I am going to achieve that in the most cost effect way I can with regards to my glass, moulding, and other materials.
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mathematician
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Mon 15 May, 2006 5:12 pm
- Location: Ireland
So before we can determine a fair wage for a framer it seems we have to decide if he is a craftsman.
Obviously we need to define the word “craftsman”.
From the Oxford English Dictionary:
Craftsman (or craftswoman)
• noun a worker skilled in a particular craft.
If we take that as the definition then I would concede that a framer is a craftsman.
The problem is that a huge range of jobs fit the definition.
For example, someone who makes sandwiches is a craftsman.
Someone who makes handmade greetings cards is a craftsman.
I know one framer who employs a person to cut and clean glass – that person would also be deemed to be a craftsman.
Then there are people like cabinetmakers and silversmiths who are also craftsmen.
So even if we agree that a picture framer is a craftsman does it take us any nearer to determining fair pay?
No! Because now we have to decide if he’s closer to the sandwichmaker or the silversmith.
I would tend to put framers at the bottom end of the scale. All of the crafts at the top end of the scale have qualifications and years of study/training associated with them. By the way, I mean accredited recognised qualifications such as NVQ, BTEC and degrees.
Mathematician BFA (Hons)
Obviously we need to define the word “craftsman”.
From the Oxford English Dictionary:
Craftsman (or craftswoman)
• noun a worker skilled in a particular craft.
If we take that as the definition then I would concede that a framer is a craftsman.
The problem is that a huge range of jobs fit the definition.
For example, someone who makes sandwiches is a craftsman.
Someone who makes handmade greetings cards is a craftsman.
I know one framer who employs a person to cut and clean glass – that person would also be deemed to be a craftsman.
Then there are people like cabinetmakers and silversmiths who are also craftsmen.
So even if we agree that a picture framer is a craftsman does it take us any nearer to determining fair pay?
No! Because now we have to decide if he’s closer to the sandwichmaker or the silversmith.
I would tend to put framers at the bottom end of the scale. All of the crafts at the top end of the scale have qualifications and years of study/training associated with them. By the way, I mean accredited recognised qualifications such as NVQ, BTEC and degrees.
Mathematician BFA (Hons)
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markw
I am starting to feel a little intimidated by all these BFA hons floating around this thread. I cant give you a figure as I stopped employing anyone except my wife a few years ago (dont ask - she's paid too much). In my experience realy good framers are hard to find and you normaly end up training someone who then leaves at just about the point when they might be useful.
My past employees have left to become - Teacher - self employed cabinet maker - Postman - Full time art student - they all make considerably more money than I could pay them.
My past employees have left to become - Teacher - self employed cabinet maker - Postman - Full time art student - they all make considerably more money than I could pay them.
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Roboframer