FATG

clueless · Post by **clueless** » Sun 21 May, 2006 8:30 pm

who is this fatg mentioned in so many postings and whats he do?

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sun 21 May, 2006 8:47 pm

Welcome to the forum clueless.

The Fine Art Tade Guild is the only, well, the MAIN trade organisation for picture framers and galleries in the UK

http://www.fineart.co.uk/

sarah · Post by **sarah** » Mon 22 May, 2006 9:27 am

Welcome Clueless.

clueless · Post by **clueless** » Mon 22 May, 2006 3:16 pm

Isnt there no orgunisation just for framers? Fine Art Trade - sounds a bit poncy to me, Ijust frame pictures.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Mon 22 May, 2006 5:41 pm

No, there is not, well not any worth mentioning.

You could always become member of the American PPFA and also subscribe to a magazine called 'PFM - Picture Framing Magazine (or Monthly?)'

Our main trade mags even do not have the word "FRAMER/FRAMING" in their titles. WE have 'Art business today" and 'The Picture Business"

It tells me simply that they see their main revenue in advertising from publishers of limited edition prints. ....Which, BTW are NOT ART!!!

Not your average framer · Mon 22 May, 2006 10:12 pm

Now here's a thread to stir things up a little, if I'm not mistaken!

I am intending to join the Guild at sometime, but I must admit that I'm a bit suprised that there does not appear to be any requirement for it's members to work to any meaningful minimum standards.

I'll give an example. A lady brings in a cross-stitch for re-framing. It's only just been framed, but she ain't happy! She wants it in a larger mount to show more fabric around the stitching. I open up the back to see what's involved and find the mount which is much to small is clearly not newly cut and has written on the back "£1.50", also the cross-stitch has been stuck to a coloured piece of mountboard with white double sided tapestry tape and has been stapled through both the cross-stitch and the mountboard all around the edge with masses of staples and he has trimmed the fabric to size without any concern for future framing.

I was speechless and so was the customer. This was done by a GCF who also is FATG member. It was not possible to do what the customer wanted, because using a larger mount aperture would cause the difference between the coloured side of the mountboard and the white tape to show through the cross-stitch. As a result I discussed this with both the FATG and a leading and very able member of the FATG, I chose not to name names, because I don't think this is at all helpful.

The FATG informed me that this was not necessarily wrong practice, but can be an acceptable way of keeping within the customers budget. The leading FATG member, who is well balanced and fair did however point out that needle work framing is not part of the GCF exam.

So what the point of why I am relating this? Well, I've made it a point never to say anything negative about any competitors at all. I just don't what to even think about it! I did not say anything unkind about the other framer on this occasion, but it was difficult to handle! If the FATG had a list of things which "Thou shalt not do", this situation would never have need happened and we all could be confident of maintaining a positive and professional image for our profession.

By the way, I did have a quiet and private word with the other framer and we still are on good terms with each other! I still intend joining the FATG, because I think the industry needs some kind of professional body and promoter of standards and in the absence of an alternative the FATG is it. I think this might be quite a lively thread!
Cheers,
Mark

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Mon 22 May, 2006 11:17 pm

A couple of things scream at me here Mark,

The customer was speechless - therefore was not told by that framer what methods he would use, or that he would be trimming her fabric.

If the FATG really said that this was not necessarily bad practice, then that is that, for me.

IT IS BAD PRACTICE!

Yes, you can obtain GCF status without framing needlwork, but there is a separate needlework module to the test. Pass that and you get (adv) after your name. It is LAUGHABLE - I am far more proud of my BFA (hons) and SGF status.

I KNOW FOR A FACT that my framer could pass the GCF test and all the add on modules - I trained him, therefore I am several rungs up from a GCF - yes?

Truth is - not necessarily! As you have proven, there are GCFs and there are GCFs - I am definitely better than the GCF in question!

A test that lasts a day - 3 framed pieces and a few practical and writen tests - that results in LETTERS AFTER YOUR NAME!!!!

PLEEEEEASE!!!

(Sorry- going off on one here)

The other thing is this - Mark - 2 questions

1. Have you passed the driving test?

2. Have you broken the speed limit since?

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Tue 23 May, 2006 12:13 am

Not your average framer wrote:I think the industry needs some kind of professional body and promoter of standards and in the absence of an alternative the FATG is it. Mark

Well Mark,

THIS very forum could evolve to be a promoter of standards and much much more.

Loads of famers sharing news views and ideas - totally impartial when it comes to products and their suppliers - instant problem solving.

Etc etc etc - I think we should all email the link to this site to every framer we can.

If I were the FATG and certain suppliers too - I would be starting to twitch already!

sarah · Post by **sarah** » Tue 23 May, 2006 9:01 am

Gentlemen we had a similar discussion last year about the trade guild. I think we ended up arguing ourselves round in circles. But it certainly was a lively debate with some very valid points from both sides of the fence.

I think if you search for it you might get some good ammunition for your arguments whatever side you take.

Just did a search for the old debate and it was july 2004 and it reached 3 pages with 43 replies - probably the most active thread ever.

markw · Post by **markw** » Tue 23 May, 2006 9:23 am

Roboframer - In my experience your attitude to high standards is the exception - not the rule.

I took my GCF along with a few other very experienced framers - we were all very apprehensive about the procedure. Passing doesn't automatically mean that you maintain standards - but its a reference point that indicates that you understand the standards required and from that point on you cant claim to be unaware of those requirements.

The basic GCF isn’t a days test - its three pieces of work that should indicate very clearly how good - or bad you are - they are taken to pieces and picked over very thoroughly - the test written - verbal and practical are all relatively easy if you have a certain amount of experience. I can’t comment on the results framing schools get from putting "new" framers through the test, but I would tell candidates that they needed some practical experience before taking the test.

The advanced modules are fairly demanding and push you into studying areas of the process that you probably wouldn’t need to understand fully on a day to day basis. I am studying advanced textiles at present - lots of it I know - bits I am working on.

Its important to note that The FATG mediated in the case mentioned by NYAF - I daresay the framer concerned was told in private to tighten up his standards - its difficult to police a standard only held by a small number of framers set by an organisation that’s viewed contemptuously by many in the industry - bit like Tescos threatening to take your club card off you. The only way this can be remedied is for more of us to belong to the organisation and play an active role in making it into the organisation we want.

mathematician · Post by **mathematician** » Tue 23 May, 2006 10:07 am

Does anyone really believe that the Fine Art Trade Guild should tell us how to frame everything.
I guess it's possible but I suspect the books would fill a library.

One very simple standard would prevent many problems:
When a customer leaves an item with us for framing it remains his/her property and we have no right to alter it in anyway without his/her permission.
In other words, "show some respect for the property of others."

I take the attitude that it is my framing business and therefore my responsibility to learn how to handle items correctly. There are enough resources available today, books, websites, forums such as this and the Grumble for there to be no excuses.

What's next? Are we going bring legal action against the FATG because they didn't tell us not to cut our customers property?

markw · Post by **markw** » Tue 23 May, 2006 10:20 am

Mathematician - your reply is fine for you - but arent we concerned about standards in the industry as a whole. The major problem with uk framing is lots of litle businesses doing their own thing - good - bad and plain bloodyawful. You will find that the FATG standards do define that you should respect the customers work and and not alter it in any way that would lead to damaging that work.

Interesting question on that point - customer comes in with needlepoint - badly creased and a bit mucky - do you wash it and iron it before lacing? - you obviously risk damage by exposing the material to water - do the materials used run etc.

my answer is no - I ask the customer to bring it back clean and ironed as I wont risk damaging it.

mathematician · Post by **mathematician** » Tue 23 May, 2006 10:53 am

Mark

Yes, I am concerned about standards in the industry as a whole but I think the attitude of the individual framer comes first.
If he doesn't care, standards won't change his attitude.

And then of course there is the tendency I've noticed already for some framers to blame the FATG for not covering all eventualities in the magical book of standards.

To the best of my knowledge the FATG does not sneak around at night sticking signs like "Quality Picture Framing" or "Professional Picture Framing" on our windows. We do that and it is our responsibility to live up to our claims.

And someone made the point about policing. It just isn't possible to ensure framers practice what they have been taught for their GCF, CPF or whatever. We can all quote examples of this I'm sure.
Plumbers and electricians are all trained to standards but it can be hard to find one who remembers his training.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Tue 23 May, 2006 12:42 pm

markw wrote:
Interesting question on that point - customer comes in with needlepoint - badly creased and a bit mucky - do you wash it and iron it before lacing? - you obviously risk damage by exposing the material to water - do the materials used run etc.

my answer is no - I ask the customer to bring it back clean and ironed as I wont risk damaging it.

I would not wash needlepoint, needlepoint is usually worked in wool on canvas mesh, it is rarely creased or mucky as the whole area is worked and you cannot really crease something worked in wool on such a heavy support. Most people call needlepoint 'tapestry' but it isn't really.

Cross-stitch, that is different, we WILL and DO wash and press cross stitch, as long as there are no beads, lace or other embellishments and as long as the piece has been worked in DMC or Anchor threads, which are colorfast. We soak in a very mild detergent, such as biotex and dry naturally, over a towel, on a rail.

As well as selling needlework (big time) we have a dry cleaning agency and our cleaners, on several occasions, have rescued pieces that our methos will not.

We recommend that cross stitches on aida or other light fabrics are washed and pressed regardless of if they look like they need it or not. Grease from the hands, which may be invisible at first, can cause dark spots later.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Tue 23 May, 2006 12:46 pm

When I was a Guild member, one thing I noticed was that they never got their hands dirty - i.e. no-one ever came to see me, to see what I was up to; to promote the GCF scheme, get some hands on feedback or anything else.

But they could send senior members to New Zealand to promote themselves there - with my subscriptions!

markw · Post by **markw** » Tue 23 May, 2006 1:43 pm

Roboframer - They do venture out to Branch meetings - Rosie came out to the last Cotswold Branch meeting and made a point of getting our views and responding to critiscm. I know that this forum is watched and I only wish that someone from the guild would respond occasionaly - It would do a lot to push back the superior image that many framers see the guild as having.

Textile cleaning - I know who to ask next time.

Keith Hewitt · Post by **Keith Hewitt** » Tue 23 May, 2006 2:06 pm

I would like to see the F.A.T.G in as many overseas counties as is possible. It is commendable that they actually have more members per head of population in New Zealand than they have in the UK. I wish they could repeat this success in another 50 countries. In Australia the PPFA has got themselves much better established, which favours indirectly the sale of USA made products. Rosenstiels sell in over 100 countries, Colourmount in over 80, Keencut in 50+. Speaking for Colourmount I would welcome a F.A.T.G. presence in these countries.
In some of the countries I visit there is NO frame show, NO magazine, NO framing school, and in a few there is even NO distributor/stockist. UK framers dont realise how lucky they are! Try running a frame shop when your nearest distributor is in another country!

The FATG will always have its critics, its unavoidable, but if you want to criticise do it from the inside, join up and suggest the changes you are seeking.

Keith Hewitt
Colourmount Board

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Tue 23 May, 2006 3:40 pm

Well Keith,

Would you like to see the FATG in all those countries because you have a genuine interest in raising standards/awareness in them, or to flog your boards in them?

Some of my criticisms (I also have praises) are not very popular whether given from inside or outside.

How happy would you be if The Guild were to test all mountboards and find that the best buy, both for performance and value for money was a product other than yours and then published their findings?

Not very I would guess, and this sort of information, for my 'dream' trade organisation would be basic. Impartial product testing - something the Guild will never do, they'd just be shooting themselves in the foot.

So we have to find out what is hot and what is not the hard way.

Mark,

I am not referring to branch meetings, I am referring to visits to premises, both of members and non-members, to get a true picture of what is going on.

Post by **John** » Tue 23 May, 2006 8:04 pm

Roboframer wrote:for my 'dream' trade organisation would be basic. Impartial product testing...

Is this like fantasy football?

How many members would it take to support this dream organisation, and what sort of subscription would be required from each?

I'm no expert, but I imagine that even with the most impartial of product testing, the results may not be as clear cut as we might wish.

Not your average framer · Tue 23 May, 2006 9:08 pm

Just to put the record straight, the FATG did not mediate, I kept the other framers name out of it, but I did seek their comments to clarify what was considered as acceptable. I did in fact privately speak to the other framer myself and did not mention the FATG at all.

My main feeling at the time was that I did not want to offend anyone, but felt that tactfully relating the tale to the other framer and the difficulties it caused was the least I could do. I have never slagged off another framer and in this framers case I have seen plenty of his work which is normally excellent. I have since this event refered other customers to him when I can't fit in their rush job in time, (he is the fastest framer I know!) and I have received referalls from him too!

My point is that some practices should be considered as not adequate in this day and age, also the FATG has an oportunity to take the lead in saying what is not acceptable to the benefit of the standing of our profession and also the interests of our customers.

By the way, the careful usage of language in the FACTS standards is excellent, particularly the use of the words "may"(recommeneded) and "shall" (mandatary). For those who don't know FACTS = Fine art care & treatment standards. These are the standards promoted within the USA. FACTS standards are very informative and well worth reading - I benefitted greatly just from reading them!
Cheers,
Mark