money owing

[danchip1]

I have a £900 order waiting to be collected, two of the frames are particularly large, I have a small shop and they are taking up space.
I have left the customer two messages, with no reply. I have dealt with customer before for largish orders and had no problems. it has been over a couple of weeks and I need to move them out and get paid, i am a small operation and cash flow is important.
what would be my best approach as I dont want to appear to be a PITA and afterall, the guy might be on his holidays...but maybe not...?

What is the experience of the Forum??

Thanks

[prospero]

Tell me about it. I suspect this is not an uncommon scenario among the members here.

Assuming you can get hold of the customer, a friendly phone call asking what his plans are generally doesn't go amiss. Try to pin them down to a day
It's amazing (or maybe it isn't) how people think they can leave things for months on end. I've had them come in 2-3 years later asking if it's ready.

If it carries on and you suspect that it will carry on indefinately, send a more forcefully worded letter. If you get no response, get your solictor to send them a letter stating a deadline after which the said art will be sold to cover your expenses. Sent recorded delivery so you have proof that they got it. But that is a last resort. So far I have only had need of the stage 2 option.

[RobinC]

It is a constant problem. We have customers who agree to have framing done and then we never see them again - why don't they just say no if they can't afford it! We usually only start work if we have a deposit, and when the current financial problems began a year or so ago we upped the amount we take on deposit. however, we have a number of customers that we have dealt with for years and we do take work in from these with no deposit. It when customers say why do you need a deposit when you have my photos/needlework/print. If they don't come back, what the hell am I going to do with their kids photos!

By taking larger deposits and getting the work ready as quickly as possible we have cut back the amount of work we have uncollected, but I have a couple of boxes of framed photos that we have accumulated over the years. Most of it is small stuff, but it is a real pain when it is larger pieces.

RobinC

[Bill Henry]

It's a recurring problem for most of us, I think.

This isn’t a quick fix by any means, so this doesn’t address your immediate concerns of getting paid immediately and clearing space in your shop, but when faced with your situation, we go through a five step process.

You may have a slightly terminology, but this usually works for us.

1) a phone call reminder.

2) a post card reminder.

3) a gentle certified letter letting them know that we expect them to pick up the work by a date certain. If they sign for the letter, keep the receipt; if the letter is returned unsigned, then keep it on file.

4) a tougher certified letter stating that if they do not pick up and pay for their work by another date certain, we’ll take them to small claims court. Our state has a $35 filing fee and the limit for small claims here is $1500. No lawyers involved.

5) if they don’t respond to this, then we go ahead and file suit at the clerk’s office. The court will send the customer a notice of appearance. In 83% of the cases, the customer has picked up their work before the court date. If not, they will probably default on their court appearance, too, so a summary judgment will be awarded to you. (Collection at this point is another bag of worms).

(In twenty-three years, it has only gotten this far six times. Five of the folks showed up before the court date. The one who didn’t had moved out of state.)

Only after we have exhausted these remedies and we’re still stuck with the piece, we will send out another certified letter saying that we consider the piece abandoned. Keep that receipt or returned letter, too.

It’s not too likely that threatening to sue someone will result in bad publicity for us. Who in their right mind will want to tell their friends, “That frame shop is suing me ‘cause I’m trying to weasel out of a debt”? Most people will just keep it quiet.

[Roboframer]

I've used the small claims court just once, it wasn't a particularly large order/amount of money, just that the customer kept giving me BS and p'd me off.

He ended up with a CCJ (County Court Judgement) which means he is credit blacklisted - he may well have already been - anyway, he still never collected and I was the small claims court fee worse off!

These days it's a phone call 2 weeks after the (agreed) collection date, followed by a call, email, letter, combination of any/all every week after, unless a new date is agreed. After 3 months of that we give up - we'll either remove the artwork and sell the frames (marked down) as ready mades, or, if we know we can replace the artwork - sell the whole damned thing for the full price and if the customer returns and causes a fuss we'll say the cost of the artwork was less than the cost of the administration work caused by lack of response.

Probably totally illegal but stuff it - I've done it a few times without yet having to find out what happens when the customer returns.

[Not your average framer]

The secret is to take a reasonable deposit up front. It doesn't matter if they are regulars, or if they say that you have their picture as security. That's not the issue!

You need to tell them that the deposit is to cover your up front costs for purchasing materials, etc. Tell them that it's not a matter of not trusting them. The issue is cashflow and they need to pay something up front.

The reality is that without a deposit you may not have a legally binding contract between you and the customer, in which case you've lost before you've even started.

The deposit should be large enough to not leave you out of pocket if they don't collect the order.

[Jonny2morsos]

How about telephoning and asking if they would like to suggest a convenient time you could deliver?

In future you could politely point out that you have to pay your suppliers on a timely basis and suggest a 50% deposit on future orders.

Having said that I had a big job sitting around for 3 months over Xmas & New Year. Didn't like to phone in case I got him in trouble with his Mrs. The print was worth over £3k!

John.

[Davie]

I guess i have been pretty lucky over the Years with customers, but if pictures are left for around six months and the customer comes back, i just tell them we have a three month policy, that if not collected then we dispose of it, either selling it or storing it away if its a good one...(pension fund) why should i lose money because they cant be bothered to return a call or respond to a letter....But one customer i have is a regular and spends between £1000 &£1500 a week eleven months of the year, they owe around £8000 and i get paid a couple of invoices here and there grrr, no matter what i say makes no differance i either put up with it or they can go else where, its a bummer at times but i do get paid eventually ( Smile and wave) Been like this for the last five years....so i guess it works out at the end of the day

[griff buch]

How about telephoning and asking if they would like to suggest a convenient time you could deliver?

You then may have to take a cheque which could possibly bounce after you have released the goods. At least with a card payment it has immediate approval.

[Davie]

I take it all back, just got a cheque for £3500....

[prospero]

If they don't come back, what the hell am I going to do with their kids photos!

RobinC

Cough up! Or the photo of the dog gets it!


I have a spare bit of wall on my stairs and on it are hung some of the various framing jobs that I got stiffed over. As I have to walk past them constantly, they serve as a reminder not to be so trusting with folks.

[kev@frames]

we pretty much follow robo's routine now. couple of phone calls, a letter, then remove the artwork and sell the frames.
Probably safer from a legal position than selling the artwork with them but you get more for the frames anyway and a quicker sale than you tend to with artwork in them.... and then the artwork or photos or whatever end up in a folder along with everything else uncollected since 1994

Happen to be noticing a little more "uncollected" items accruing at the moment. possibly due to the economy (?), but an increase in people paying up front.

[markw]

I always try and take a mobile number or an email address. My pricing software will then text or email a message to the customer on completion of the job. The first message is a polite reminder that their work is ready for collection - the messages can then be set to get progressively more demanding. Its been amazing how effective this has been.

Even if you don't have this facility you could text from your own mobile - or sms via Skype.

[gesso]

A deposit is usually a good insurance that the customer will return to collect on their 'investment'

However looks like we've all been there done that!
so as far as I can remember if after your efforts to notify your customer (keep a detailed record) you still have no luck you are legally allowed to deposit the goods to recover your costs, if the sale of the item exceeds the total outstanding then this surplus must be returned to the customer (minus any admin charges, solicitors letters etc)

[framejunkie]

if the sale of the item exceeds the total outstanding then this surplus must be returned to the customer (minus any admin charges...

I imagine if i were in this situation i would find that my admin costs were quite high . Then there's a fee to store the frame while you waited for payment. And another fee to make sure this masterpiece is insured for the entire duration of its time on my premises. Have i managed to outweigh the difference yet? I'm sure there's one or two things I've forgotten to charge for

[gesso]

Interest chargeable will be equivalent to your business account/ overdraft rate.

I still have a few framed pieces one from a member of the R.A. that I inherited with the business 15 years ago that is still racking up charges along with others from dealers and galleries from London that I'm hoping will one day pay for that dream holiday.

[danchip1]

Well, update

I did get a text message from the customer, saying he was over seas and back soon. Gave him a few days to be back, have sent two texts, left one message, that was 2 weeks ago. His company has five offices in the UK, one in the States also, they all, through every computation of calling options, go to the same music, then the same voice mail...oh dear.
I think maybe in this current climate, he may have gone down the tube. Is there anyone who knows if there is a register of insolvent companies / receivership etc? The most frustrating thing is when people dont communicate, i'd be happy to come some arrangement, if only they would TALK TO ME!! And does any one want to buy 13 framed and signed Take That pictures, and 23 framed wedding photos

[gesso]

Hi Danclip,
Sorry for your situation, I would suggest its time to start proceedings. The consumer action group site
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/

maybe a good source of info re small claims (think if its under 5000) you can go through the county courts ...but saying that it's no guarantee even if you win it would be easy to get your money out of this guy.
I did a quick search and I found this company who do credit ratings for businesses
http://www.findoutinfo.com/direct/CD001 ... =cd001.xsl

But I would seriously consider having a solicitor send out a letter now if this guy has gone down you may be down a long list of creditors.

[Peter the framer]

If it's a limited company you can check at
www.companieshouse.gov.uk
and click on webcheck - look at the status - if it's active it's still going.

[griff buch]

Just checked out this site - how much is a signed 'Harlequins' rugby shirt worth? The framing, with cons. clear is about £230.