How soon can you have it?

Post by **John** » Sat 09 Dec, 2006 5:02 pm

I've never figured out how to handle this one.

Not wanting to put myself under unnecessary pressure, I always like to know just what the customer has in mind when presenting me with an "urgent" job, as this can mean anything from, within the next hour, to within the next month.

Nine times out of ten my simple question "When do you need it for?", instead of getting a simple answer, infuriatingly gets another question: -"How soon can you have it?"

I've now got to the stage of telling them "four weeks", it helps to focus their mind on giving me an actual date/time.

Not your average framer · Sat 09 Dec, 2006 8:01 pm

I've often wondered how much extra one could charge for rush jobs which are allowed to jump the queue. My thoughts have been along the lines of charging extra for getting the necessary materials delivered on an overnight delivery service, but also putting all other materials to be ordered from the same suppliers on the same order. This would be like getting free delivery on the rest, because the rush job customer has paid the delivery charge.

Of course there could be something extra on top to give an incentive to us framers too. After all, it cost extra for next day at the dry cleaners, so why not at the framers?

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sat 09 Dec, 2006 9:08 pm

I won't charge any extra for while-you-wait as I'll only offer it when I am well up to speed with orders and generally like to be working about 4 days ahead.

Otherwise I just won't do it, or any queue jumping, at any price - generally.

The only time I will charge for a rush job is if it's next day and the moulding is not in stock - then the customer can pay carriage at cost.

At present I have two 'dates' for collection - 'By Christmas' or 'After Christmas' and 'ring when ready' in all cases.

Underpinner · Post by **Underpinner** » Sat 09 Dec, 2006 9:12 pm

Speed of delivery has not been particularly important to the majority of my customers during 12 years of framing. There have been very few occasions when I have lost jobs through not being able to complete quickly enough. And I have never seen any great merit in being the fastest framer in sight. Instead, I worked out at an early stage (yes with a stopwatch and notebook handy) how long it took me to complete various stages of various types of frames and arrived at reasonable times that I could maintain, day after day, while working at a pace that was enjoyable and allowed for the required attention to detail.

It was quickly apparent that a "same day service" would be too disruptive, so this was offered only in very exceptional circumstances involving simple jobs for which the required materials were in stock in more than adequate amounts in case of problems.

As I am in a tourist area, when I used to sell small prints I also kept a few suitable frames and mounts ready for quick fitting at short notice and I had some popular items all framed and ready to go. Even then I did many jobs at 2-3 days notice for holidaymakers who were "going home on Saturday".

The real answer to the question now is 10-14 days. As I am semi-retired I no longer carry a stock of mouldings so the business relies entirely on Ashworth and Thompson's excellent chop service - whereas previously I used chop only for the more expensive mouldings or others that I didn't want in stock. Glass and boards come from Welsh Framing Supplies who have provided a great service throughout my twelve years, and small hardware sundries all come from Lion (ditto). OK that is the well-deserved plugs over. The point is that I have simplified the job and it is working well. Most folks seem sensible enough to allow a couple of weeks at least for frames to be made - either that or I have trained them over the years, or they have heard of my reputation and are too frightened to ask! Yes, there have been many times when I have not been able to meet the customer's initial deadline. But when it is explained at the outset, and they realise that the reason is genuine, more often than not they have accepted the earliest that I could manage.

There is justification for passing on any extra charges that are directly related to the speedy nature of the job. There was a time when I would work up to 10pm (normally 5pm) during extra busy periods (like December) to meet the demand for orders which could not otherwise be fulfilled for Christmas. So is it time and a half for evenings and double time on Sundays? On the other hand you might be more lenient with frequent, regular year-round customers (most of whom probably know better than to place orders at the last minute).

And looking at this issue another way; I would add that it is not a good idea to give the impression to the customer that good work can be completed ultra quickly. The plain fact is that it can't, not on a sustainable basis. While some customers realise this, others do not. So if you want your normal timescales and charges to carry any credibility, don't undermine yourself (and indeed all of us) by showing off to customers with your record-breaking completion times.

Not your average framer · Sat 09 Dec, 2006 9:31 pm

I do allow a little bit of queue jumping from time to time if necessary to meet deadlines for birthdays or special occasions. I've never charged any extra for it, but I did wonder if anyone else did.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sat 09 Dec, 2006 11:22 pm

Underpinner wrote: don't undermine yourself (and indeed all of us) by showing off to customers with your record-breaking completion times.

Under the counter we have a folder and a couple of shelves for incoming work - I usually empty these daily - put away into plan chests or wherever.

Delicate stuff or stuff in old frames goes straight into the workshop.

I have not managed to empty the folder/shelves since Thursday and today I took out FORTY FIVE orders - ONE of those orders was for 17 frames - at least 50% of the rest were for more than one. Add to those another 15 or so that came under the 'old frames/delicate' category

Please don't give me advice when you have no idea of the scale of my operation.

Normally we have enough work to keep two full-time framers and one part time going non-stop, we don't get 'lulls' - we have to pull all the stops out if we want to make a 'window' in the schedule to get stuff made/framed for the shop. It's not like we go at it at to 'show off' or to break 'records' and then sit about saying 'Ha - have some of THAT.....hmmmmm NOW what shall we do'

Now things are not 'normal' - they are ballistic and BOTH my framers are off - the full time one has been off for two months with a knee problem and may well be advised not to return to this type of work.

Apart from collating all those orders, in fits and starts, today I got ONE job done - also in fits and starts; my wife and I both spent most of the rest of the time taking framing orders while 2 assistants dealt with collections and other shop sales.

Something has to go - hopefully not my nerves. I emailed my family tonight and told them I have written Christmas off - grown-ups will get a card, kids a cheque. I've been at it 12 years too and it scares me sometimes realising that we have not 'peaked' yet.

Speed is not important to my customers either - GENERALLY - but it is to me, it has to be. Tomorrow is one of two days I would have had to escape and do some Xmas shopping, had we had a full compliment of staff.

Instead I'll be in at 8 am and home at 8 pm - I'll flick through the orders and know at a glance how long each one will take - put 12 hours worth in a pile and start burning calories.

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Sun 10 Dec, 2006 5:48 pm

Turnround for us is seven days, and that is accepted as reasonable by us and the customer. If they want it quicker, that's not a problem, as long as they are not pulling a fast one - literally. As we get nearer Christmas, then all stops are pulled out. This is the time of year when 'must haves' and 'will waits' are separated. Not all December orders are vital for the 25th; and it puts some work into that first half of January when things can be a little quiet, with the sales and people still on holiday.
Same day service never came into the equation, even when 'fast-frame' franchises started back in the eighties. Most of those never survived anyway,even in today's 'must have yesterday' society.
We don't charge extra for a faster return generally, but sometimes we do, depends on the circumstances.
Always be in control,don't rush for the sake of it and never put yourself under undue pressure.
After all that's not why we became framer's is it ?

norymags · Post by **norymags** » Sun 10 Dec, 2006 9:03 pm

Last week a customer came in to my studio and told me she had spent £500 on her grand daughters trip to a very expensive photo session in Edinburgh and needed the framing by Christmas for their darling little cherub.

Who am I to deny her my services if she is more than willing to pay more than a bit extra for the job..

So I set about the job after hours and two days later she came back and paid me what I asked and was delighted...and so was I....don`t bite their hand off completely....but if they want to pay more then give them preferential treatment..Norrie

Underpinner · Post by **Underpinner** » Sun 10 Dec, 2006 9:22 pm

Foxyframer, I like your style. The last three lines of your post say it all. "Work to live" say I, not the other way round. What is the point of being the richest man in the graveyard?

Roboframer, what on earth makes you think that I was seeking to advise you in particular, or anyone else for that matter. Wouldn't dream of it. If anyone finds anything useful in my remarks then good but I don't think of them as advice. Discussion is what the forum is all about. I was simply explaining how and why things worked in my business in the context of replying to someone else's thread, in this case John's, not yours.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sun 10 Dec, 2006 10:44 pm

Underpinner wrote:
Roboframer, what on earth makes you think that I was seeking to advise you in particular, or anyone else for that matter. Wouldn't dream of it. If anyone finds anything useful in my remarks then good but I don't think of them as advice. Discussion is what the forum is all about. I was simply explaining how and why things worked in my business in the context of replying to someone else's thread, in this case John's, not yours.

Ah, apologies - I read your post as a run on from mine - seems I'll have to take it out on the missus after all!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sun 10 Dec, 2006 11:03 pm

norymags wrote:Last week a customer came in to my studio and told me she had spent £500 on her grand daughters trip to a very expensive photo session in Edinburgh and needed the framing by Christmas for their darling little cherub.

Who am I to deny her my services if she is more than willing to pay more than a bit extra for the job..

So I set about the job after hours and two days later she came back and paid me what I asked and was delighted...and so was I....don`t bite their hand off completely....but if they want to pay more then give them preferential treatment..Norrie

I don't understand this Norymags ....

She needed it by Christmas - OK that's 2 weeks away -

Why did she need to pay extra for the job?

Why did you need to do this job after hours?

Why was it done so quickly if not required so quickly?

Underpinner · Post by **Underpinner** » Mon 11 Dec, 2006 4:17 pm

Just needed clarifying Roboframer - no apology required.

Oh. and by the way, I gathered from an earlier post that your wife is pretty formidable. So DON'T take it out on her whatever you do. She might come after me !!

norymags · Post by **norymags** » Mon 11 Dec, 2006 8:43 pm

John the reason is my order book until Christmas is full.

The customer wanted them done asap and paid me more.

I can see no reason for turning the job away when I could do a bit of overtime and give excellent customers service, after all that is why we are here.....for the customer. Norrie

Not your average framer · Mon 11 Dec, 2006 11:02 pm

I'm preparing to put the closed sign up on the door so I can stop taking orders and get a few done instead. The thing I find hard to do this time of year is to just stay in control.

Everything was planned for the next few days, but Tufnells have completely lost my Simons order. This time they have no record of it at all! Ever wondered where these things go! Am I Happy? I bet you can guess!
Merry Christmas,
Mark

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Mon 11 Dec, 2006 11:24 pm

Closing the doors is not an option for us - people travel too far for us - anyway - wouldn't even stop taking framing orders.

'The shop' has always been capable - people don't appreciate what goes on in the back rooms - they bring stuff in and collect it framed later.

This year will be like the first Christmas we had here when I was alone in the workshop - but worse - I think from tomorrow I'll be doing 16 hour days. The eight I get to spend with the shop shut will be the ones that count.

But it won't happen again - when wound-licking time comes there will be a serious staff change.

If it becomes imposible to fulfill an order for Christmas, right up until the last minute, it will be a first and a very sad day for us.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Wed 13 Dec, 2006 1:15 am

Underpinner wrote: I gathered from an earlier post that your wife is pretty formidable. !!

OK - check THIS out - sorry the URL does not change within the link - can't take you straight there - anyway click on this ...

http://www.angmeringvillage.co.uk/ ... then 'forums' - then ''Angmering General' then 'Christmas in Angmering'

It's a laugh! Mrs Robo is 'Patty' there BTW.

There is more - far FAR more - but she (and others) are keeping the peace as it is the Parish Councils' CHAIRMAN'S EVENING on Friday - after that we will spill about how she did a Frank Doberman at the Parish Council meeting just last night - stay tuned to that website.

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Wed 13 Dec, 2006 1:38 am

It all becomes seriously easier when you have dedicated shop counter staff, it allows you to just crack on with the work.

Most of these one hour jobs are not rocket science

we still always surcharge for one hour framing for stock materials. that way if they want it they are happy to pay. The lads in the workshop get the chance of overtime if we are over-running on time at the end of the day, the surcharge is a fiver extra for what is invariably a ten minute job anyway, everyone's happy. And its another job out of the way that you dont have to do next week after its been sitting in the shop waiting. You are going to do the job sooner or later, so make an extra fiver on it, the money's in the till, and the picture is gone and out of your way and not taking up space waiting for collection

Surcharging also sorts out the people who really do need it quickly from the peple who dont.
Some people just cant be bothered making a journey coming to pick it up and you'd be surprised at how many just must have it, or their world will end, before tomorrow, but suddenly they are quite happy to leave it a week rather than pay the extra fiver

with 3 in the workshops and one on the counter so that the workshop staff just have to make frames without being forced front of house to oooze charm and experties, we'd be a pretty sorry bunch if we couldn't manage to squeeze in a few extra-value (surcharged) "while you waits" in a typical day.

It jut a different way of "adding value"

Not your average framer · Thu 14 Dec, 2006 10:29 pm

I don't close the shop all day, I just limit the hours I have to spend serving customers, especially while I'm doing things which I don't want to be interupted. For three days of the week, I'm running everything single handed and the rest of the week I'm making frames and cutting mounts for my part time staff to fit and finish. If I stop to serve a customer, the staff often catch up with me all have to wait for me to do the next one.

Today was great! I'm now on 12 hour days until Christmas! I took loads of orders and got stacks done too! However, Robo's 16 hour days are a bit too much for me these days, since the heart attack 2 years ago.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Thu 14 Dec, 2006 10:43 pm

Well, I got a shedload done on Sunday and Mrs R has been very good helping me out in the workshop - leaving her 2 'girls' out front. Plus she has taken all the framing orders bar the real PITA ones and I can now see light at the end of the tunnel.

I'll probably work all day and night this Sunday and we may both stay on til about 7 pm most days next week - and that is to clear what we have in at the mo'

So - that means our order book is 'full' for Christmas???

Well - yes it is - I cannot make any more inside those hours and I do not want to make any more outside them.... But I COULD

SO - for the first time ever, and thanks to this topic - we WILL add a surcharge - add 25% if you want it by Christmas - WHY?

Because we don't wanna do it, that's why!!!

I think that that is fair - in fact more than. I mean our normal turnaround with 2 and a bit framers is 7 days and that's all year round - but alone (all but) that is unreasonable at this time of year.

You want me to make your bad planning and preparation good?

FINE - PAY!!!

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Fri 22 Dec, 2006 10:19 pm

Thats the right attitude Robo and Average, nice one

every other business works that way, why on earth should the modern 21st century frame shop be different!

we, too, "shut our books" for this christmas, based on the hours we wanted to do and the days we decided to work.

we generally work to capacity, we can always find something to do, ready mades or PITA jobs, and with a one-week turnaround offered as "default", quicker if necessary, and if they dont want to pay for a "while you wait" they are more than welcome to try somewhere else.

Half the time the secret is knowing when to say "no".

I realised after several years of 7 day weeks and 12 or 16 hour days that I was flogging my tripe out for no good reason, we even shut saturday afternoons now so that Mrs Kev gets a day off.

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