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[philipsheldon]

Afternoon !

This one's an interesting one.

I got talking to a customer this morning. Said Framer was busy buying some " standard " mountboard for a job that had just come their way. The Framer commented to me that, the person bringing in the work had not been given a choice of what material - ie - mountboard & glass could be used on the job in question by the " previous Framer ". The quote was for only conservation board & some degree of specialist glass.

The person wanting the framing done did stipulate how much the item had cost them ( also, they had been to a framing establishments before, so knew a little about the materials involved, but did not mention this at the time ).

After being told that no other materials other than those quoted for should be used on the relevant work ( even though the client did ask if there was a cheaper option available to them ) the Framer providided the client with the estimate, said client just smiled, thanked the framer & walked out of the establishment.

When our customer learned of the clients experience-both Framer & client agreed that it put the framing trade in a dim light. Apparently, the client remarked that they " hoped all Framer's don't behave like that ".... Seemingly, Whoever had quoted for the job previously had only wanted to use a certain type of material.

Apparently, the job was for a framed picture that cost the client # 19.99.

Now, we all know the benefit of better quality materials, but if one gives a choice to a client & they are happy to proceed with the framing, does it matter what materials are used in the end ?

All materials have a time & a place...don't they ?

[Nigel Nobody]

Great topic, Philip!

the person bringing in the work had not been given a choice of what material - ie - mountboard & glass could be used on the job in question by the " previous Framer ". The quote was for only conservation board & some degree of specialist glass.

IMO it's a good idea for framers to give some choices by explaining the benefits and disadvantages of different materials and methods, however if one or two framers are only prepared to offer conservation board and "special glass" (whatever that means) then it's their prerogative to do so. It's a darn sight better than only offering the opposite end of the quality scale.

The person wanting the framing done did stipulate how much the item had cost them

I think this is irrelevant. Framers are not psychic. They don't automatically know if someone treasures a cheap print. The customer should have told the framer the item was not of huge importance to them, not how much they paid for it. I've framed many $6 prints for more than $500 because the customer placed a high importance on them.

After being told that no other materials other than those quoted for should be used on the relevant work ( even though the client did ask if there was a cheaper option available to them ) the Framer providided the client with the estimate, said client just smiled, thanked the framer & walked out of the establishment.

Maybe the framer had so much work that they didn't really want the job at a cheaper price. Who knows why he/she operated this way, but it's obviously not very wise.

When our customer learned of the clients experience-both Framer & client agreed that it put the framing trade in a dim light. Apparently, the client remarked that they " hoped all Framer's don't behave like that "

I don't think this puts our industry in a dim light. There are many things that out our industry in a dim light, but I'm not going to list them. This isn't one of them. The person has jumped to a totally illogical conclusion with that statement.

Apparently, the job was for a framed picture that cost the client # 19.99.

Again, irrelevant. See above!

Now, we all know the benefit of better quality materials, but if one gives a choice to a client & they are happy to proceed with the framing, does it matter what materials are used in the end ?

My method includes making a recommendation of materials and methods for each item brought in for framing. I will give a price for that quality and if the customer doesn't wish to spend that much, I will provide other options that cost less, but I will explain the disadvantages of the less costly options and let the customer make an informed decision.

Many other framers in my area only provide the less costly option with no explanation of disadvantages. That, IMHO puts the industry in a dim light, because it hides valuable information from the customer, who will probably be very disappointed in a few short years.

[Roboframer]

There's two sides to every story; I'd like to hear the first framer's - and I'd bet the second framer has been bad-mouthed to other framers as well - I know I have

BTW, if I had to special-order standard mountboard for someone, I'd charge them more; not less, unless, maybe, the job used the whole sheet, assuming I could buy just one.

[JohnMcafee]

It is important to be able to read your customer and use a bit of tact. There can be many reasons why the 'conservation' discussion is inappropriate.

[Gesso&Bole]

I think there are 2 issues here.

Firstly, I think framer number 1 is quite entitled to only offer the mount board that he offers. A Rolls Royce garage is not obliged to offer Ford cars as well.

But issue number 2 is how the customer is treated. I suspect that the framer did not want to be bothered with the job, so did not waste time in explanations or advice. My approach would be to acknowledge the full spectrum of framing options available, and give the customer advice as to where to obtain the options that I do not offer.

The other day a youngish woman came into my shop asking for the cheapest frame for a couple of prints. Undeterred, I set off with mount (automatically double) and came up with a nice looking plain ash frame, with a total price of £55 each. She gulped, and said no way could she afford £110. We talked around the issue, and she told me that she had seen some frames she liked in Ikea that were nice, but a bit too big. I suggested she went and got them, and then brought them back for me to cut some mounts to make them fit. All in all, I probably spent 10 or 15 minutes explaining the options. She has not been back in but last Saturday a chap came in and spent £330 on framing 2 pictures. After I had done all of the paperwork, and was chatting to him, he mentioned that he had been recommended to me by one of the girls at work who had been in, but could not afford my service.

[Roboframer]

I just keep it simple, my default materials and methods won't 'do anything' to the artwork and when I give the price for them and the customers don't blink, they get that in total ignorance. Why bore them?

[Anorak]"Well, Mrs Jones, I'll be matting AND mounting your painting with artcare boards, which are made from virgin alpha-cellulose and contain zeolites and microchamber technology don't you know, and, unlike similar boards without that technology ACTIVELY protect your artwork from airborn pollutants and turn them in to harmless salts ... oh yes, they have the capability to empty themselves and will continue to do so for hundreds of years. We will hinge your painting with Jacuzzi-Satsuma-Hiroshima hinges and wheat starch paste made with de-ionised water ... not distilled water, oh no, distilled water is 'hungry' you see and .........[/Anorak]

"Mrs Jones, Mrs Jones, where are you going? Come back - you need to know about nanometers and the ideal angle of the wire to the wall hangings - do you just use one nail in the wall Mrs Jones? WELL DO YOU, YOU OLD BAT!??? - Yeah, go on, call the cops, see if I care YOUR PICTURE IS DOOMED ..... DOOOOOOMED - MUAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA"

[stcstc]

i do it slightly differently, although my target market is different too

i offer a couple of options, and price based on which they choose

if they are not sure or say its a bit expensive, I just outright ask them how much they expected to pay

if its not practical to do it for that much i say so. and otherwise i give them and option, based on the budget they just gave me


I do find though that being helpful, and not talking too nerdy about this stuff does tend to pay back well

the other main factor i mentioned is my target market. its pro, semi pro and amateur photographers

both my customers and I are generally making decisions based on framing for profit.


And you know what it works

I have more work than i can cope with, and my business is growing at a rate of around 60% month on month!!!!

[prospero]

One thing to consider..... 'Standard' mountboard that you buy today is not the same as the evil stuff that used to be the norm. We have all seen the orange bevels or in the worse cases, dicsolouration of the actual surface paper.
During the 80's there seemed to be a great awakening and efforts were made to neutralise the acidic content. Granted, board made from superior material is better. Up to a point that is..... Blinding white bevels look great on prints, but often highly distracting on original works. Even worse on antiquarian prints that may have 'mellowed' with age. OK, use solid core rag. Great in theory, but apart from the cost and logistics of stocking it (not to mention the very limited colour range), most old prints just don't warrant it. A good Ivory board with a cream bevel looks better. White bevels tend to leap out and grab you. Not so much on prints that may already have a bright-white border, but on traditional original watercolours - things that have felt the touch of a human hand in their creation - white bevels can look inappropriate at best and hideous at worst.
Conservation issues aside, a not inconsiderable part of framing anything is to enhance the visual presentation.

So when push comes to shove, do you go with the ideal look, or the ideal conservation solution?



Feel free to pick the bones out of that lot.

[Roboframer]

I agree, crisp white bevels can look hideous on some things, not just old things either. Imagine a quadruple mount, top to bottom (or vice-versa, doesn't matter) black, grey, red, blue.

NOPE - black WHITE grey WHITE, red WHITE, blue WHITE!

But sticking to originals and antiquarian stuff ...

1. There are other (preservation quality) solid core boards apart from cotton.

2. Some manufacturers make cotton boards in many colours, the Nielsen chart I have shows 34.

3. You can reverse the bevel

4. You can add a fillet (which may well be more acidic than a standard mount bevel, but you can seal it and you can space it)

5. The artcare colour core range includes cream - for this exact reason - looks discoloured/old, but actually high preservation quality.

6. It's not difficult to colour a bevel, and while you're at it, flick/sponge some paint on the face of the mount to simulate acid burn spots.

7. You can peel the surface paper from a preservation quality board and wrap a mount bevel with it, as deep or as thin as you like.

So ......

when push comes to shove, do you go with the ideal look, or the ideal conservation solution?

Both! (if you want)

Some manufacturers' standard/budget boards are just the same as they were in the 80's too.

[stcstc]

i think common sense comes into play

whatever is practical and appropriate


BUT

i think being fanatical about either method i dont think pays the best benefits you our own businesses

If the market your in supports high conservation materials and their time and price tag then cool

if the market your in doesnt then trying to sell that to your customers doesnt make any decent business sense


and so to me it make sense to be able to offer both options if they are appropriate to your market.

[kev@frames]

On the face of it the first framer was too expensive, and the second one prepared to do the job on the cheap.
Some people say we are pretty expensive, although we are always very busy indeed. Perhaps framer 1 is in the same position, and simply has no need to do anything on the cheap.
Framer1 should have kept his trap shut about the conservation (etc) and let the customer just wander off thinking he was too expensive.
I don't see framer 1 in a bad light for not being cheap enough, in fact good on him for not working for peanuts. It's people who work for peanuts who do more damage to the image and the income of other framers imho.
I'm happy if 2 or 3 out of 10 people walk away because we are "too expensive". the muppet down the road can have them, and he's welcome to them.

Let me guess: Framer 1 has been in the game a long time, turns over a lot of money, is always busy, and is expensive anyway. He has a nice car, earns 50-75k from his shop, pays a lot of VAT and tax and wages, his bank rates him as an "A" risk, he turned over 30% more this year than last year, and he's seen lots of cheap "competitors" come and go.... and probably still buys his conservation mountboard cheaper than framer 2 buys his "standard".
Framer 2 is pretty new to the business.........

Having said that, good post. There is always a place for standard board, MDF and other materials often frowned upon by the conservation police. Thats why suppliers sell so much standard board and MDF..... there is a demand. And it is appropriate for some jobs, and some framers specialise in those sort of jobs, some dont.

One would almost think you had a load of standard board to shift, Philip

[Gesso&Bole]

Oh you cynic Kev!

Now if anyone wants some nice standard board on the cheap, I have got several hundred sheets that are so old that the bevel comes up brown even when newly cut . . . . I'm liking Prospero's ideas above, perhaps I should offer these as a premium product to match other pictures framed 20 years ago?

[prospero]

I re-framed a rather valuable watercolour once. Dated about 189oish if I remember rightly. The mount was the usual GOLD, quite thick with a hand-cut bevel which was very, very brown. On carefully removing the mount I found that there was not a trace of acid invasion on the painting. Not a bit.
I have some knowledge of the artist's techniques and I know that he took great pains in selecting his paper and it's subsequent preparation.

Which leads me to believe that the level of carpness of the actual paper the painting is done on is inversely proportional to the level of conservation framing the painting will need.


A lot of 'art' carries the seeds of it's own destruction. A factor that often is overlooked.

[philipsheldon]

Morning All.


I knew the replies would be interesting ! Ace !


Hey Kevin, good to see you commented, but sorry my good Sir, I don't follow your last line Sorry.

Our customer re-told a tale that I passed on as I thought it was something the FF community would like to hear. The tale has nothing to do with A & T stock I can assure you.

Just a tale of of everyday Framing folk, that's all Rather like the Janet & John tales from the Wogan show ! I like the J & J tales !

[quote="kev@frames"]One would almost think you had a load of standard board to shift, Philip .

Anyway good people out in Framing land, lets smile It's Wednesday & I am giving Blood tonight. How many of you do that ? Taking my little girl to watch the proceedings tonight as well.

What about an FF drive to give Blood in the name of some charitable cause ?