How Can We Improve Our Industry?

[SquareFrames]

Hi All,

In answer to MarkW's posting in the FATG postings section, of not what an organisation can do for us, but whe can do to improve our industry....Answers? Let's go for it then. As we are either picture framers, gallery owners, let us begin with my suggestions:

1. Framing Standards, A MUST......already been set, and in my opinion are excellent, but will always be improved upon with new products / materials, etc. coming onto our workbenches.

2. Print Standards, A MUST.......already been set, and again most bobafide publishers / printers are adhereing to them. Not all prints have to conform to the standards, but then again, you get what you pay for. Again can always be improved upon with the introduction of new paper and inks and printing techniques, so should be ongoing.

3. Mountboard Standards: A MUST.......already been set with the co-operation of the major mountboard manufacturers, and again the mountboard at the this time is excellent (well at least the ones I use are), but again the standards will be ongoing as the manufacturers strive for better quality facing and backing papers and also cores.

4. We must have someone that works for all its members, be they large manufacturers, wholesalers, printers, publishers, artists, large or small retailers.

5. I would like moulding manufacturers to manufacture mouldings with a minimum of 15mm rebates

6. I would like widespread, continual blanket advertsing in many magazines and newspapers, or failing that done at a local level at least 3 times per year

Also to help improve our industry we need an organisation that negotiates deals with other organisations for its members. I personally would like a BUPA type deal, a Reduced Mortgage rate deal, reduced Car Insurance / Shop / Home deal, A Legal Deal, where they will not only answer your calls 24 hours a day but also represent you and pay expenses for any court cases, and many, many more deals and discounts. I would also like discounts and deals on a more localised level, not all Insurers for example will entertain us poor people from Northern Ireland.
We need an organisation that takes onboard all what its members say they want, BUT we have to tell them what we want and need, we cannot surmise they are mind readers and read Tarot cards / tea leaves during tea breaks. This is just the proverbial tip of the iceberg, I am sure there are many more items I will think of once I have signed off, but what I DO NOT want is my hand being held, I would like the assurance that there is an organisation behind me, working hard, always striving to improve our industry, and letting me get on with what is important, my business! But knowing that all I have to do is lift the telephone and demand an answer to a problem.

Let me know what everyone else thinks, everyone will have their own ideas and suggestions, lets hear them, let us improve our industy.

Steven

[Underpinner]

A good start to this topic Steven but I am not sure that I agree with everything that you suggest.
First, regarding your requirement number 4, I disagree entirely. Manufacturers, distributors, galleries, printers and artists are catered for already by the FATG. Surely what WE need is an organisation that specialises in the needs of bespoke framers. To try to cater for the entire industry hasn’t worked so far and will not work, simply because it introduces too many conflicts of interest right from the outset.
Secondly, the question is (not what our industry can do for us but) what we can do for our industry? Well, it takes years and pots of money to arrive at the sort of organisation that can produce even a few of Steven’s requirements – and the plain fact is that no-one else is going to start it for “us”. “We” have to get on and do it ourselves. I say “we” because it is easy for me to propose new ideas since I will be retiring fairly soon and will not be involved. However, as I pointed out a couple of months ago in the debate about the FATG, those who want a new organisation that really does meet the needs of framers had better get on and start one. I haven’t noticed any takers so far!
As for the potential new organisation, it doesn’t need to worry about national standards in framing, prints and mountboards, since the FATG does that sort of thing quite well. On the other hand it should concern itself with educating the public about the price of framing – but first its members need to be willing to discuss this all-important issue in detail in order to arrive at some acceptable conclusions. My attempt to raise this topic on this forum produced a response which was, frankly, disappointing.
In short, nothing will get done while everyone waits for someone else to do it. Despite this forum (which was a GOOD idea). Nothing has actually changed in the past six months. Will we be in the same situation next December?

[markw]

Underpinner is right in his comments - if we want a body that truly represents the framing industry we will have to start it ourselves - untill that day the FATG will have to do because its all we have (nationally).
I am not sure that if we take a close look at our businesses we wouldnt come to the conclusion that in fact we have interests that go way beyond framing - gallery sales - art materials - gifts etc.

So, what can we do to improve our industry? - for a start we can involve ourselves in local groups - this doesnt neccesarily have to be FATG - art groups - camera clubs - art schools - local schools - they all often use framers and contact with them can do no harm - I often give my local secondary school old frames - I have work experience students - it all goes a long way to making people aware of what we do - and the standards we work to. Dont forget the local FATG branch - even if your not a member you will undoubtedly get a warm welcome at meetings - see Art Business Today for dates - and if you dont get that particular publication somehow you are missing out on most of the available news within the industry.

Get qualified - It raises the profile of the industry - and if your a reasonably good framer its not difficult - if your not - well you will learn something in the process.

I have made many negative comments about the FATG - but I cant fault the local branch network - lots of business doing their bit - lots of suppliers trying to educate their customers - we just have to persevere in pushing our industry forward.

Its interesting that the American "grumble" often has very similar gripes to ours - but they seem far more open in the forum - as underpinner comments at his disapointment at the number of postings to his exploration of pricing - they are more willing to reveal the workings of the business, we need to be able to do the same. - mind yo, we do need to recruit a few more members. John - hows the invitation project going?

[SquareFrames]

Hi All,

I agree with John's comment about needing an organisation for bespoke framers, but as I never mentioned the Guild in my posting, I will stick up for them here; the Guild actually do cater for bespoke framers, who else did they set the Framing and Mountboard standards for? Anyhow, I also agree with MarkW we all should get invloved locally with art clubs, camera clubs, we have to make ourselves noticed. I also go to local schools, art clubs, etc. but I do not take in work experience students, I have a framing school here and that keeps me busy enough. I also take time and go to other framers, those starting out in the business, doesnt do any harm giving them a jump start, I have nothing to hide.

BUT the main thing I think is required is; we have to work on a local level, getting together with other localised framers and making the case to get ourselves noticed. For example, an advert in one of our national papers (broadsheet) here for a full page is approx. £1600 +VAT, and between myself and the framers with a radius of 10 miles would cost us £188 each, and this paper covers not only our area, but also the whole country, not bad, eh? But try asking the others, only half would agree, if that. That is the problem, everybody whats to get recognition and decent promotion, but doesnt want to do anything about it when it comes to the bit, and I for one would not like to be left with the huge bill of paying for this myself.

We organise local Guild branch events, and get an excellent response at every meeting, and I always have to bring someone over from England or wherever to demonstrate or talk, as there are those who attend that would not stand up and do a demonstration or give a talk, 'very loathe to give away secrets you see, could help the competition'. Yes. I understand that, but if someone wants to copy any of my frames that I make for my customers, so be it, I would feel slightly falttered and bemused, but I would not loose any sleep over it, but they could only copy them if one of their customers asked for it. Does that make sense? What I am trying to say is, to succeed firstly we need to loose this 'steal my idea would he' mentality and start working as a team and promote the idea of picture framing and then we can promote ourselves.

I also fully endorse MarkW suggestion.....Get Qualified, means a lot to a MMM and Ahhhh customer, in my experience. Again, sticking up for the Guild, the GCF scheme is a world-wide recognised qualification, and again there is nothing better anywhere at the moment, the GCF Advanced modules are on the go now, and well worth while studying for and taking, again there is nothing better world-wide than these modules, the two released at the moment are Textile Framing and Mount Design & Function, othere are to follow soon. There are no other UK bodies offering picture framing qualifications in the UK or Eire, so now is the time to get yourself qualified and promote yourself, would not do any harm!

Steven

[reynard]

Unless there is a proper apprenticeship for the trade for framers then it can not be properly regulated.There will always be "framers" around that just arent up to it.The general public have never had a clue about picture framing anyway.The bulk of them want something cheap and cheerful to slap onto the wall after they have decorated.The people "in the know" are few and far between and will tend to travel quite big distances to see a decent framer.

I am interested in fine art and I actually find it a bit of a joke that we are still continually punting "limited edition prints" as some kind of invesment.They are crap.Lets face it.They are overpriced marketed junk pushed by "suits" who have no idea and no interest in painting or art.i personally dont touch them with a bargepole and would be quite happy if they are all printed using ink that fades on paper that rots fast.

The sentiments behind ahaving some kind of unified standard for the trade are laudable but ultimately flawed because basically anybody can set up as a framer anytime.Its not exactly hard to buy a morso and an underpinner and cut and join frames is it?A monkey can do it as I was told when I first started....

I,ll sign up if its a properly managed system that roots out cowboys.Bt if its just a money collecting system and a worthless wee certificate like the current commended framer joke then I,m not interested.

[markw]

Gosh! where do I start? lets try monkey - Looking at some of the work in run of the mill galleries - some selling very good original art, i think that i agree - with the obvious conclusion that many artists / gallery ownwers dont know the difference between framing produced by monkees / framing produced by craftsmen. - i take it by your comments that you see framing as the simple matter of cutting and pinning four lengths of moulding - ? if so dont even try and get the wee certificate as you might find it a humiliating experience. I would also take you to task on limited edition prints - millions of people buy it - its an affordable means of buying an image that has some exclusivity - and the value should not realy be of any real consideration. Value has infact been made more of by custumers than dealers, with many dealers being aware that expressing any investment value could lead to later claims when proven to be inaccurate. i have never seen any written statement from any publisher saying their prints will increase in value.

if you run a business you have a choice - you sell what your customer wants - and you will generally have a good business, or you sell what you like - regardless of customer demand - its a good way to have a lot of stock left unsold, but i suppose that you can enjoy the pictures in your gallery. personally i buy the art i like for my self and hang them on my own walls at home.

Apprentiships are few and far in this business - and as far as I know always have been. Many people come into the business having had experience in other fields and in my experience of those that join the FATG they take a proffesional pride in the work they produce - often far beyond the amount they charge for the time put in. I have trained three framers - taking them straight from school - they all went on to do different things - one has just finished a fine arts course at the Royal Academy, one is teaching art and design and the last has set up his own business as a cabinet maker - Its difficult to pay the right person enough money. You will see if you read my other postings that i am critical of many aspects of the FATG but its all we have - knowing some of those now leading this body I know that things will change.

[SquareFrames]

In reply to Markw

I am in total agreement, but to be honest I wouldnt have even dignified reynards posting with an answer.
But to concur with markw, and like markw, I consider myself a professional framer, with bonafide framing qualifications, that are recognised world-wide by the art and framing industry. I also belong to a professional organisation, the FATG, that has worked ceaslessly and is continuing to work ceaslessly to set the standards by which all framers can work to, but like all businesses some dont. (reynard, you obvioulsy dont, as your monkey does the framing).
With his stupid comments, reynard has slighted the framing industry as a whole, he has infact made a mockery of all the hard work we all have put in over the years, but if thats all he wants to do is use his monkey to cut and pin a frame, cut a mount (probably with a Stanley knife), who are we to argue, hey! its up to him, personally I dont give a flying fig what he does, but what I am angry at is publically slighting every professional framer in ths business.
Like markw states, LE prints are an affordable option to the original artwork, so what if men in suits pass them to the trade, who else is going to? The 'men in suits' spend 1000's of pounds printing, publishing and promoting great taleneted artists, and produce some marvellous LE print ranges, more power to their wee brass wheels. If reynard doesnt like LE prints, if he doesnt want to buy LE prints, or if he doesnt give his customer the option of a LE print, who cares? We give our customers what they want, not what we want to give them. I also inform my customers that thay 'may' or may not' increase in value, i then leave it up to them to make up their own minds.
I have also trained many, many picture framers, either straight from school, but mostly directly after retirement, all have gone onto bigger and better things, one opening his new business in the South of France next Easter once his renovations are complete. (Big bash there next Easter, all staying in his wife's B&B with swimming pool). From my experience this is not a job you leave school to do, there are very few yoing people doing this, unless they have gone into the family business, its a job for someone wnating to divesify form his hum drum life, sitting in an office, or pounding the beat, there are lots of ex Police, Navy, RAF and Army in this business, havent seen a monkey yet mind you.
To finish, if reynard hasnt anything constructive to say about an industry hes probably making a living at, and an industry us monkeyless framers love and enjoy working in.
Och aye! I almost forgot. That wee certificate you talk about, I got 2 of them which I am damn proud of, they not only help me in my business standing in the community, but help create an air of comfort and ease for my customers, knowing that I have at least went to the bother to increase my knowledge, and that I know how to care for their artwork.

Steven

[Guest]

Like I said.The industry has been deskilled in the past twenty years.I have lost count of the number of folk that came into the trade on the back of a weeks tuition somewhere and set themselves up as framers while they butcher peoples artwork.The same folk that go and get their certificate and then come back to the workshop and continue to butcher peoples artwork.I know its not everyone but its an awful lot of people in the trade.

I was a FATG member many moons ago and found it a waste of time.I havent changed my mind at all and see no reason to change my mind now.I was trained by a properly apprenticed framer over a period of five years.

My old boss was of course being flippant with the monkey comment but its a basic truth.You can spend a few grand on equipment and set yourself up in a prime site and call yourself a framer and the bulk of the public wont have a clue whether you are good bad or whatever.

As for LE prints.I am sorry but they are a pet hate of mine and always have been.I have seen some of these things selling for 4-500 pounds and more sometimes.For that kind of money I could point you in the direction of something original that has at least some artistic merit..

I have always felt that as a member of a faintly artistic trade that you should at least have a basic knowledge of fine art.And hopefully a love of fine art and painting.The general public have always bought rubbish en masse.Thats a basic lack of education I am afraid and the print publishers will make a pretty penny out of basic fear of buying original artwork by the general poulation.

And yes I was on the wind up a bit....but it keeps things interesting.

[markw]

guest - are you reynard - if so where did your old boss come into the discussion - or was he the monkey?

How do you define artistic merit - cow in formaldahyde - warhol print - etching ? some people want ltd eds - and i for one will sell it to them - for an increasing number of artists its the main way of actually generating income - your attitude would take away that additional revenue source.

Guest - you state that you were trained by a journeyman framer (the correct term for someone who has completed an apprenticeship) you seem to prove the point that having trained for five years you have no formal qualification - a massive commitment in time and effort for nowt. the commended framer qualifications are a trade recognised formal test - and however hard you try to belittle them they are the only formal test in the uk. a new customer coming into your framing workshop presumably has to trust your word as a framer that you wont butcher his work - wheras they can ask the FATG to intervene on any Commended framers work that has failed to reach the required standards - as a "non qualified" framer you are the one who can butcher without consequence as you arent working to any specific standard.

A last point on education - many of the most uneducated people seem to think they know what there talking about - many of the educated know what their talking about but dont shout about it, i suspect both reynard and guest are in the former category.