Guild Guild Framers Committee reply to points raised on TFF

[stcstc]

thanks max

the credit card rate, insurance, legal help are not not any used to me as although i can be a member i am in ireland

and as far as i know none of the offers can be used abroad. i think also the legal help will be based on english law, which isnt much use generally in ireland

Could you explain to me about the benifits of the networking with my competitors too. partly i agree it does do some good, but business is about selling not networking.

I went looking at the website, there is some information there, but i found it not the best site to use. and the thing i specifically went to look at, the 5 levels of framing, as these threads got me interested in what the differences were.

what i found was stuff explaining to the public. and nothing that explained the details.

would this be correct or did i just miss it

[kev@frames]

As i see it, and correct me if I am wrong, the roots of rthe FATG are the printsellers guild, and at one time a lot of their agenda/activities revolved around promoting the sales of prints.
Framers are part of the overall larger art "industry", so are the other visual arts.
Marketing and promotion are what the FATG should be about, as well as educating/setting standards etc.

So I will be positive. These are the things which the FATG have that are good.

1. The 5 standards. A bit imperfect, but at least it is a set of standards. And until someone comes up with something better they do the job they were meant to.
2. Some good publications (which don't need discounting to members because they are worth the full price, and which nobody will join for just to save a couple of pounds). Discounting them to members is a nice gesture anyway.

Educating/setting standards/supplying information to newcomers to the business is a good thing. Framers who have been in the business a long time don't need much of that, just keeping up to date. What established framers do need from a trade organisation is the organisation to promote "Picture Framing".

To do this it needs to first promote itself outside of the trade, that can be costly. If you don't have a massive marketing budget it isn't insurmountable.
Here is one, off the top of my head, way it can start to do that:

The scenario today is this- web sales account for a huge part of the art market/framing etc. On this forum alone there are five members who I would guess shift between them a quarter of all the online art sales in the UK. Are they FATG members? One is.
Most of us others who sell online have not-inconsiderable sales volumes, and mailing lists.

So you make your "collecting art prints" or "framing standards" leaflets available as free PDFs for anyone to download and print out, make them freely available to non-members to use, and there will be a queue of people trying to snatch your hand off for these to print out and send as freebies to their customers.
And put a printed QR code to your website on it at the same time, (and make your website mobile-friendly).
They'll get the credit from their customers of giving them something useful, happier customer, less complaints, and you get your logo in front of more members of the public, if not a whole family. And that is an art-related buyer.
Thus you have non-members promoting the FATG for free, getting your logo and your information in front of the buying public (the art buying public) at zero cost to you. Once people have seen the logo in something they bought online, they will be more likely to recognise it in a shop window, for example. So you are actively promoting your brand (logo) and giving framers more reasons to join the guild as well.

There are a hundred other free things you can do, most of which take advantage of new media.

It's all about the marketing. Which the FATG should be good at, had they not lost their way a few years back, because that's how they started out. It doesn't matter how good, or bad your product is, you'll move more of it with marketing than without.
Why do framers have nostalga for the heady days of the mid 90s when print sales were so good thaat most of us were pinching ourselves because we couldn't believe that we were selling everything and anything in a frame off the walls? because the marketing was spot on in the prints industry, and the FATG played a big part in it then.
Framing is only part of the art industry, when printing was the hight of technology, that meant the FATG was at the cutting edge of marketing the new type of readily available affordable art (prints). It just happened that framing and prints went together very well.

One final word on marketing. People (ordinary shoppers) frequently come in my shop and ask for Arquadia board by name. That is impressive marketing for what is a really niche product in the great scheme of things. Food for thought.

[absolute framing]

When I met Rosie the former MD of the Guild at a FATG Irish Branch meeting in Galway a few years ago, I asked about special Credit Card Terminal Rates and Golden Pages advertising discounts for Irish members.

I was told that if I wished to organise it myself for the members in Ireland, I would be allowed to mention that it would be on behalf of the FATG in my negotiations with these 3rd parties.

Not the help I was looking for. Needless to say I left the FATG.

I re-joined a few years later with the promise of change, hopefully this will be coming.

[Nigel Nobody]

Nigel: you are not a member of the FATG, I was for ten years. They are a business, providing a service, and anyone who pays for a service, or membership, whatever you want to call it, is buying something. I was using the customer analogy to point out that if they want people to "buy" into the FATG, they have to make it look like good value. Your post was admirable only for its brevity and nothing else. Thank you for that. I'm glad we had this little talk.

Thank you Kev! I certainly appreciate you putting me firmly in my place! I apologise for having an opinion that's different from yours, but I will not change mine and undoubtedly you won't be changing yours either!

My view is based on PPFA not FATG, as you pointed out, but you are enlightening me, in telling me that FATG is a business and members are/like customers. Thankfully PPFA is nothing like that!

[Max Roberts]

Great stuff Kev. I am not a marketing man. I've worked with some really good ones though and you come up with some really interesting ideas which I'll feed back quickly. I agree with you on the whole issue of Marketing and I'm trying to get a Marketing committee (no comments on committees please!) of business orientated marketing members. That feed back is appreciated.
Re The Republic. Apologies I forgot to look at the side of the posting. I'll check in to that one. It is difficult though. Re networking. I was a members of what I considered to be the ultimate networking group of its time BNI. I learned so much about relationship building being the key to trust and eventually business in that order. The network in our business is very important. Example. Do you have a cmc? Maybe you don't. Do you sometimes need multi aperture mounts in quantity? So unless you want to cut those 500 mounts with 30 apertures, you find someone who's got a computerised cutter. That's part of the network. The forum does that too. You don't need to speak to your opposition. We can all help each other out.
Just noticed Nigel's post. I happen to agree with him on that issue. I expect we sometimes have to agree to disagree! I've found that out on the forum already!!
Cheers

[stcstc]

so what about the website and the 5 levels of framing

as this is something set for the industry is it available to anyone?

i found links to the technical details, but have to be a member to view

[Roboframer]

i found links to the technical details, but have to be a member to view

I don't see anything wrong with that, but there are other ways, such as the magazine (Art Business Today) and Google.

[Not your average framer]

i found links to the technical details, but have to be a member to view

They are also published in the GCF exam study guide. I bought mine either from the guild or Lion, it's been so long I can't remember.

[stcstc]

well i just dont assimilate setting standards for an industry with having to pay to be a member or buy a guild book to read about them

I happen to have a study guide so will look in there

[Roboframer]

http://www.picture-it.co.nz/framing-standards.html

[stcstc]

cheers robo, would you belive i am actually in the office and looked in my gcf guide

the point was though that they are not easily available on the industry representing body's website, if that makse sense.

[Roboframer]

Well, they have a members only area just like we have here, difference is that you have to pay to be a member of the FATG and you can register here for free.

[stcstc]

your missing the point

If the guild as mentioned earlier in this thread are trying to develop standards for this industry to better it for everyone. why not publish those standards in an open manner instead of having to be a member to view?

it just seems a little double standard

[Roboframer]

Well I know them and I don't have access to that part of the website, I knew them before they had the website, anyone could have. You only have to be a member to view on the website, there are many other ways.

It's not just non-members the info is hidden from on their website, it's non-framer members (consumers) too, the last thing I want is some smartarse coming in to my place asking for 'cotton museum' mount board when my default artcare non-cotton boards out-perform them ... etc.

Possibly they could open up the members only area to non guild member framers who can prove they are framers, but that would probably piss off the members who's fees have contributed to the site, it would me!

[stcstc]

yea maybe your right

[Louise Hay]

Anyone in the art and framing trade can register with the Guild site http://www.fineart.co.uk/DynamicEnquiry ... ation.aspx for free, to gain access to Fine Art Trade Guild standards. You can register by clicking the link, or if you email me directly with your business name, address and contact info I'll set you up myself and email back with your log in. When the website was redeveloped (and the strategy for the development came from members) one of the criteria for the developers was ability to require registration to access trade information. We complied. I'm sorry if it isn't clear from the relevent pages that anyone can register for free and I will have a look at the content to make it clearer.

Ref GCF- this is a qualification like an 'A' Level, not a standard and can't be taken away. At the time it was agreed that everyone in the industry could take it, member or not and that policy remains. We have looked at this policy quite rigorously several times in the years I've been at the Guild and have always concluded that this was the right decision. We've found that as many people agree as disagree, so clearly we can't please everyone. A short-lived experiment with requiring membership in New Zealand (at the request of the NZ Branch members) didn't achieve any objectives; ours, theirs or NZ framers

Ref Five Levels of Framing - we're not proposing removing the lower levels, we simply looked again at the subject in response to a FF posting. To meet Budget and Minimum levels the frames, mounts (if used) and backs must be well made and of reasonable quality. There is a standard for each level in the market; we simply ask that they're used appropriately for the artwork. Oh, and the levels recognise that some artwork is inherently unstable. Someone asked me recently why we bothered with a standard for Standard mountboard; before we set up standards anyone could sell board of any quality labelled how they liked - there was no benchmark or industry agreement. The Mountboard standards group had by neccesity to include the manufacturers - they have the technical knowhow plus Guild standards are all developed by consensus. Framers, conservators, paper technologists and trade suppliers were represented as well.

Ref Benefits of membership - we think we have a good selection of benefits, both industry wide and sector specific ; clearly some of you don't agree. As we can't know what we don't know we're just asking what it is you need that we aren't providing... there was no offense intended.

Sorry this post has got rather long and once again off the main point of the thread.

[Mary Evans]

Just to say I've been away for a few days, during which time this post has moved on. Maxwell and Louise are in a far better position than I am to answer questions about the general direction the Guild hopes to go, and I am very supportive of their plans. I'm still reading and interested in all comments, but will stick to answering framing and GCF issues

I think it's great that this post has produced so much interest, and some very valuable points for the Guild to consider.

Mary

[stcstc]

louise thankyou for taking the time reply

I didnt twig the free thing, thats great. i will send you my details later to sign up etc

i wasnt aware either about being able to do the gcf without being a member

as for the benefits, in the uk some of those ones max mentioned are great

its a little more difficult in ireland i guess as the number of framers is small

[Louise Hay]

Ireland does now have a fairly small membership base which is a pity, but we do have a Branch Master for Ireland who I'm sure will help you if he can - he's Aidan Lynch GCF and he works out of the University of Limerick's visual arts department taking care of their extensive art collection.

In reply to Stephen's post on Ireland - Rosie had meetings with Irish benefits providers (credit card and insurers) but a) there aren't enough members to be of interest to them, and b) they will only work with Irish businesses, hence the request that Irish members carry the project forward. (The same happened in NZ.) We did purchase the .ie domain for the Guild's site so consumers and trade will find us, and more importantly our members, more easily and that was hard enough! We had to prove a long standing commercial relationship in Ireland before they would let us have it.