Diffused and Reflective Control, what's the difference?

[Bagpuss]

It was pointed out to me by the nice lady at Glass&Mirror /Wessex during the week that as a cheaper alternative to TV Reflection Control (TV01), I might like to consider 2mm Diffused Float (S2D004), almost half the price.

I stock TV Reflection Control but wanted a larger piece of non reflective cut to size and as the customer was a bit worried about cost, Brenda suggested the Diffused Float. Can anyone tell me if they use it and what the main difference to the more expensive TV Reflectio Control is please ? I feel I should have probably known about this after all these years .
cheers,
Adam/Bagpuss

[Roboframer]

Normal non-reflective glass is acid etched on both sides; RC is far more finely etched on one side only.

[misterdiy]

Ahhh intersting. So is Matobel RC or diffused float as it is etched on one side only.

If so its cheaper than G&M's diffused float - but not a lot.

[Roboframer]

I think Lion - and maybe others - do NR glass etched on one side only, maybe it's not as finely etched as Tru Vue RC?

G&M also do their own brand of RC, (G&M Reflection Control) slightly cheaper than Tru Vue's and there's no discerbible difference. They're all 'diffused' whether etched one side or both, and they're all float glass.

[misterdiy]

Its not as fine as True Vue, so it does sound as if its just float etched on one side only. We get it from a major glass supplier to the trade and I think they supply Lion so it reinforces what you say.

Think I will stick with diffused rather than RC. The next headache is to sort out which of the" water white" type glasses to standardise on as they are so expensive. I know it is a subject dear to your heart but I think that a "water white" with the highest UV control you can get is the only one to stock. If the customer is going to pay that sort of money to lose reflections, then it is sensible to protect the work from UV at the same time. It tends to justify the very high cost.

[Bagpuss]

Thanks for clearing that up for me

[Roboframer]

The next headache is to sort out which of the" water white" type glasses to standardise on as they are so expensive. ................ I think that a "water white" with the highest UV control you can get is the only one to stock. If the customer is going to pay that sort of money to lose reflections, then it is sensible to protect the work from UV at the same time.

Water white glass has no Anti-Reflective properties, well, it can have them added, just like normal glass. Water white means a low iron substrate for clarity, practically zero colour shift regardless how far away from the artwork it is.

AR (Anti Reflective) glass is optically coated (it gets confusing with acrylic because 'AR' for acrylic stands for Abrasion Resistant)! The highest UV protection you can get with that, excluding laminated products, is Tru Vue Museum at 99%. The highest UV protection you can get with a water white AR glass, again not including laminated products, is artglass UV at 92%, from Wessex, Glass & Mirror and Lion.

Artglass is by far the easiest to clean coated glass I have found.

[Otters Pool Studio]

which of the" water white" type glasses to standardise on as they are so expensive.

I'm sure I read that Wessex G&M has slashed the price of Water White, now being only about one and a half times the price of standard float rather than 6 times as it was before. I've got to clarify this with WG&M but if it is the case, I might use this as standard and only revert to standard float when the customer is looking to get the price as low as possible.

[Framerpicture]

I've just had a customer return a picture glazed with Artglass AR as he can see a reflection- which you can very clearly when the picture is haging in his south facing glass conservatory

The spec sheets claim only 1% reflection, but this would seem more than that . Is it possible to fit this glass the wrong way or would another make of glass have less reflective properties?

[Roboframer]

The claims are for a normally lit room and a South facing conservatory is hardly that. None of these optically coated products will prevent direct reflection like that.

[misterdiy]

If G&M have slashed the price like that then it would be a clear winner. Thanks guys

[Roboframer]

Doubt it will be an optically coated/UV glass, just waterwhite, IOW the only benefit being less colour-shift than standard glass.

[framemaker]

Robo is right, lets not confuse Waterwhite glass with Art Glass or any other coated glass (on a Waterwhite substrate = confusion). The reduced price Waterwhite glass mentioned above has exactly the same reflections as your normal float glass, it is just very clear and with no green colour shift. A great product but it can't really be compared to glazing with anti reflective coatings.

Going back to the original question about the difference between TV reflection control and diffused float (single or double etched, matobel or whichever), as I see it, TVRC is slightly less unpleasant to look at, than the other diffused/etched float glass. You simply get a better quality piece of frosted glass for your money.

[Roboframer]

I hate diffused glass and I don't care if it's finely etched on one side or coarsely etched on both.

The reflections it might prevent may only be visible at night with the lights on, or in the day with the curtains open - or even both (because you hung it in a stupid place) but so what, chances are you're standing 2 feet in front of the thing blocking most reflection with your body anyway!

But the fuzziness is visible all the time.

The only diffused glass I stock is RC and even though it's a considerable up-sell to standard float - 'Non Reflective' glass has to be insisted upon - and I've sold TruVue CRC (Conservation Reflection Control) exactly once!

I sell a lot of AR UV glass though and the NR glass in the comparison sample really helps clinch it.

[Gesso&Bole]

The water white float from Glass & Mirror is exactly that - Ordinary Float glass that does not have the green colour. It looks like a good product, and at only about twice the price of ordinary float undoubtedly will work for many framers.

My concern, though, is that if I offer my customers too much choice I will make the decision too complicated for the customer, and stock and ordering too complicated for me. I wonder, also, if offering a float without the green tinge would 'down-sell' people from the more profitable AR glass? Anyone got any experience of this?

I agree with others above, that frosted glass just looks horrible, but it is a great way of narrowing down the choice with the 3 part glass demonstrator . . . . I think I have had the same 3 sheets of reflection Control in stock for about 3 months now!

As to which AR glass, I personally find that customers buy it for clarity, not for UV protection in the majority of cases, so I do stock both types, and sell mainly the non UV protection. This category of glass represents about 50% of sales, and UV protection < 10% of sales.

Up till now I have been very happily using Claryl from Arqadia, but as a result of lots of discussion on here, AND a very generous pricing offer from Nielsen, have just ordered Clear Colour Plus to test it out and decide for myself.

I will report back in a few days when we have used it . . . . .

[Roboframer]

Nielsen's Clear Colour PLus is OK - it's the same product, made by Flabeg, as Glass & Mirror's 'GM Museum' - another waterwhite AR glass with a UV option but with 2% less UV protection than Artglass and not as easy to clean.

When it comes to choice I agree that it's best to keep it simple - so I worry about just two things, reflection and protection; the choices of neither, either or both means stocking just 4 types of glass.

[the glassman]

Sorry, a bit late into this topic - but you do seem to have sorted it pretty well!

Our new 'Water-white' (more correctly, 'low-iron') float glass is indeed just regular float with no green tinge at all. It really does make a difference, particularly on bright artwork and white, cream or warm-coloured mountcard. I'm rather pleased with myself for sourcing this, at last, at a sensible price. Many customers are switching to it as their regular glass.

'Reflection Control' was a term devised 20 years ago (or more - I'm getting old!) by TruVue to describe their single-side etched diffused-reflection glass. Prior to that, they just called it TruVue as it was the only glass they made. When they introduced the UV-filtering Conservation Clear they had to dream up a new name for the diffused. Rather a good name for a very good product, I think. As well as only etching one side of the glass, they also polish it with cerium oxide to further soften the already light etch. Our GM Reflection Control is a very good European-made copy and a fair bit cheaper too. We also offer 'Water-white Reflection Control' with an even finer etch and on colourless glass. This is a superb product, but a tad dear for 'everyday' use.

Roboframer has it about right as usual ..... if I were a framer, I'd have just 4 types of glass in stock:
Water-white regular float
GM Reflection Control
TruVue Conservation Clear (for low-cost UV protection)
ArtGlassUV

As ArtGlass and ArtGlassUV are visually indistinguishable (ie there's no optical penalty for UV protection, unlike TruVue Museum) I'd keep it simple and just make a selling virtue of the 92% UV filtration. It is also easy to clean and looks stunning in the frame.

I'd also keep samples of the WW Reflection Control (to show how good a diffused-reflection glass can be) and our 2mm & 3mm clear UV Acrylic to cover large size work and where safety is an issue.

Haven't a clue what I'd do about other products though! Just as well I'm not a Framer.

Incidentally, if you speak nicely to Wessex/Glass & Mirror, they'll send you a free copy of my 'Guide to Specialist Glass' - a highly recommended read if I do say so. Then you'll all know about the topic and I can stop posting here!

All the best,