What's wrong with MDF in frames???

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Wed 04 Apr, 2007 5:12 am

This is an old topic, but from my experience, I think it is important.

Some people use it, some don't. Why?

Can everyone please list reasons why they do use it or reasons why they don't use it.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Wed 04 Apr, 2007 7:07 am

I admit that I use MDF but only to mount (PVA) these cheap Chinese canvasses onto.
Otherwise Art Bak Mk3

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Wed 04 Apr, 2007 8:10 am

I keep MDF out of my workshop mainly because of the dust. I used to use it but the dust seemed to get everywhere.

Bill Henry · Post by **Bill Henry** » Wed 04 Apr, 2007 3:31 pm

We avoid MDF for several reasons:

Unless you seal it, MDF can warp easily. They use formaldehyde in manufacturing – not only is it carcinogenic, but it gives me an incredible headache. It is considerably heavier than a comparable plywood. If you get it slightly wet, it can crumble.

We look upon it as snotwood.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Wed 04 Apr, 2007 6:24 pm

I used to use MDF when everyone else did and knew of nothing else.

I had no wall mounted slasher so used to score and snap.

Then 'Corricor' and all its spin-offs came out and I dropped MDF instantly - mainly because I could cut it on my mount(mat)cutter, using the 90 degree blade and the squaring arm. Plus the stuff was purpose-made, MDF is just MDF.

I still stock this fluted board stuff - cheapest I can find - but only use it for things that are stuck to or otherwise backed with crap and removal is not an option.

Otherwise I use artcare foam board.

Not your average framer · Wed 04 Apr, 2007 7:14 pm

We use MDF for ready made frames, but mostly use Art-bak and Foamboard for normal framing. We are currently using up the remains of our original foamboard stock and after this we will re-stock with Art-care foamboard.

Foamboard is also the business for dry-mounting!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Wed 04 Apr, 2007 7:41 pm

Not your average framer wrote:
Foamboard is also the business for dry-mounting!

Mark, you must try artcare 'restore' it's brill!

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Thu 05 Apr, 2007 1:21 am

I guess I will put in my two bobs worth.

It's interesting that some of you have said that Artcare foamboard is your standard backing. It's mine too, but I still use standard foamboard where the job does not warrant Artcare. I think we all have to make judgements on what to use on every job that comes in. Not every job requires full preservation quality framing.

Some of the disadvantages that I have discovered about MDF in framing

1. It is very acidic and can damage artwork if it touches it.
2. It is very acidic and can damage artwork even if it doesn't touch it. (outgassing)
3. It absorbs moisture from the air and can promote the growth of mould, inside and out. This happens dramatically in a seaside location.
4. It contains carcinogenic chemicals.

There are probably more than that but that's enough reasons for me not to use it, especially when there are a number of better alternatives available.

I haven't seen any reasons why people still use it. If you use it there must be some reasons. Please tell us!

Not your average framer · Thu 05 Apr, 2007 7:40 am

Roboframer wrote: Mark, you must try artcare 'restore' it's brill!

Yes John,

I'm planning to do so, but I need to use up my current stocks before I re-order.

Grahame Case · Post by **Grahame Case** » Thu 05 Apr, 2007 8:42 pm

we are in the process of phasing out MDF,

We've been using corricor and then artbak for ages (years), and find it easier to cut and use, and less harmful to the workshop environment, MDF dust is nasty stuff.

However, we still use 3mm MDF for wet mounting cheap factory produced oil paintings to board, if we could find a decent alternative to it for the oils that are impossible to stretch we'd not stock it at all. Any Suggestions?

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Thu 05 Apr, 2007 8:46 pm

Grahame Case wrote:we are in the process of phasing out MDF,

However, we still use 3mm MDF for wet mounting cheap factory produced oil paintings to board, if we could find a decent alternative to it for the oils that are impossible to stretch we'd not stock it at all. Any Suggestions?

Good to hear Grahame!

For "Hong Kong oils", I use foamboard with an aggressive adhesive surface. I make my own and have used Gudy 808 in the past and am currently using a different brand, but the same aggression. I haven't wet mounted anything for about eight years.

Grahame Case · Post by **Grahame Case** » Thu 05 Apr, 2007 8:57 pm

osgood wrote:"Hong Kong oils"

Thats the ones.

My mother refers to them as being from the "two trees and river school of art" every one an original !

I hadn't considered foamcore,

we're very weary of using it because it looks a bit cheap in the customers eyes.( which we all know isn't the case) i suppose we could put an artbak backing on it as we normally do, which would hide the foamcore. does it not make it slightly spongey though? and more prone to damage than a thick substrated?

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Thu 05 Apr, 2007 9:02 pm

As stated above. I only use MDF on these 'Hong Kong Oils'. They are sturdy. I have tried 5mm Foam and was not happy with the result. Maybe I was doing something wrong.

Anyway the MDF gets hidden within the frame by Art Bak as the backing.

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Sat 07 Apr, 2007 3:29 pm

we mostly use art-bak.

We use MDF backs instead of art-bak for obvious reasons in frames with styrene glazing.

Some customers prefer MDF too.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Sat 07 Apr, 2007 7:34 pm

For those of us who don't know, could someone explain what "artbak" is please?

Kev,

We use MDF backs instead of art-bak for obvious reasons in frames with styrene glazing.

Could you please explain what the "obvious"reasons are and what "styrene" glazing is exactly and why it is used.

Some customers prefer MDF too.

My immediate response to this is "who cares what customers want", but that's a bit harsh. ;o))
If a customer wants something that I don't want to give them (for good reasons) I have no trouble convincing them there is a better way and that's what I do.
Seriously, there is always a better backing than MDF.

Someone said the MDF gets hidden by another backing. Yes, it does get hidden from view, but it just goes on doing it's harmful job and absorbing as much moisture out of the air that it can, anyway.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sat 07 Apr, 2007 7:53 pm

ART-BAK

Styrene is another name for plexiglass, perspex, etc.

Art-bak has an water resistant version (Art-Bak Aqua) and a 'conservation' version - one side is lined with an 'acid free' board.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Sat 07 Apr, 2007 9:01 pm

Thanks John!
The website you posted doesn't say what Artbak is made from. Looks like MDF to me in the tiny photo. It must be something made up there as I have never seen or heard of anything like that down here in paradise!

Interesting that "styrene" is the same as acrylic, perspex, plexiglass. I have no idea why Kev says he uses MDF for obvious reasons when using styrene glazing. I hope he answers that question because I am intrigued by that.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sat 07 Apr, 2007 9:24 pm

It's not MDF it's a 'Ph neutral' board - basically cardboard with a coruggated centre.

This stuff evolved in the early 90's after the big MDF health scare.

Guess Kev is using MDF to stiffen thin/flexible styrene?

The 'health scare' got blown out of proportion a bit and some people seemed as worried about it as asbestos! But the main worries are for those involved in its manufacture, otherwise there would be a lot of DIYers with health problems!

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Sun 08 Apr, 2007 7:29 am

The health scare Robo refers to is all part of the 'nanny state' we in this country are enjoying. Not a week goes by without some official declaring a new or rehashed idea that we are all in danger of something or other. Many are gullible enough to believe everything they hear, but good old common sense has to make a stand.

Fortunately and being independently minded, we on this forum have that in spades, despite the evident perils we put ourselves in as we cut this or inhale that. Any dust, whether it comes from the dreaded MDF or any other source will be injurious to the lungs; delicate and receptive as they are.

Put one of our officials into the average framers' workshop and what a field day he or she would have.

There, more of a blog than a simple post.

Sure to raise a comment or two.

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Sun 08 Apr, 2007 10:17 pm

osgood wrote:For those of us who don't know, could someone explain what "artbak" is please?

Kev, Could you please explain what the "obvious"reasons are and what "styrene" glazing is exactly and why it is used.
My immediate response to this is "who cares what customers want", but that's a bit harsh. ;o))
If a customer wants something that I don't want to give them (for good reasons) I have no trouble convincing them there is a better way and that's what I do.
Seriously, there is always a better backing than MDF.

Someone said the MDF gets hidden by another backing. Yes, it does get hidden from view, but it just goes on doing it's harmful job and absorbing as much moisture out of the air that it can, anyway.

Sorry Os- to clarify (probably):

Art-Bak that fluted board with a curve built in to keep the artwork flat (used to be called "corricor"). It is a great product.

Robo guessed right: if we use it in a styrene glazed frame (Acrylic glazing/plexiglass) the glazing will, in due course, start to follow that curve too, then it pops out of the frame.
The alternative is foamcore, but the next one deals with that:

We shift a lot on the internet, which are styrene glazed, as we cant ship glass. So the mdf is strong and rigid enough to stop the styrene popping out, and also strengthens the frame so that the couriers baboons on night shift in the regional hubs (whose hobby is seeing what they can break) do less damage.

Customers dont like artbak in "self fit" frames (we do quite a few for artists) because the better artbak looks like crap inside. And they start complaining that we have palmed them off with "cardboard".

As Foxy says, the MDF scare is a it nanny state. like all products -including plutonium- its perfectly safe if handled/used properly

Os- To an extent I agree "who cares what the customer wants" but back to the nanny state issue again, im not going to be the one that tells them whats best for them if they demand MDF when we have already offered a superior option at the same price, many of the tightwad artists, frankly, just want the cheapest job possible, and dont even place enough value on their own work to want the better materials even when the dont cost more, If they are alleged artists, then its also their job to know the right spec for a frame, and even though we have counter displays showing artbak and explaining what it is, they want MDF, so they can have it with my blessing. Fortunately its the Youngsters at art college who are now being educated (again) about proper framing specifications, at least round these parts. So we have a couple of lecturers to thank for raising the game on that one.
Artists can be a PITA sometimes. But to be fair, many of them round here sell to the tourist market, so the finished item has to be reasonably transportable, and MDF is tougher than most of the similarly priced alternatives.

So MDF sealed with PVA, then.... /discuss