What's wrong with MDF in frames???

[osgood]

Art-Bak that fluted board with a curve built in to keep the artwork flat (used to be called "corricor"). It is a great product.

We shift a lot on the internet, which are styrene glazed, as we cant ship glass. So the mdf is strong and rigid enough to stop the styrene popping out, and also strengthens the frame so that the couriers baboons on night shift in the regional hubs (whose hobby is seeing what they can break) do less damage.

As Foxy says, the MDF scare is a it nanny state. like all products -including plutonium- its perfectly safe if handled/used properly

im not going to be the one that tells them whats best for them if they demand MDF

So MDF sealed with PVA, then.... /discuss

"Corricor" might be what is sold down here as "coreflute", although, I don't think it has any curve built into it. I haven't heard of any product that has a curve built into it down here.
Different countries seem to have different names for the same things and there seems to be products available in some countries that are not available in others.

I can understand your need for something strong when sending by couriers. They are the same down here, but my approach would be different to yours. I would not be using MDF in the framing, but in the packaging as protection. In fact have done that many times.

As far as the health issue is concerned, I have no idea what "nanny state" means, but the health issue, in my opinion, is not the highest priority. It might be able to be handled safely, but the acidic nature of MDF and the fact that it absorbs moisture from the air are the issues that I am most concerned with. For temporary framing it's fine, but I won't even use it for that.

No doubt there are differences between the way framing business work in different countries and there is one obvious big difference in how customers behave. I have never, in 22 years had a customer demand a type of backing or anything other product. I have never had a customer even insist on any type of backing.

The only time people have requested something that I knew was problematic in some way to their art or object, I have been able to explain the reasons why something else would be better and they have accepted my advice.

I think I will stay where customers are less demanding and are willing to listen to advice! It sounds way too difficult up there where you are!

[realhotglass]

"Corricor" might be what is sold down here as "coreflute", although, I don't think it has any curve built into it. I haven't heard of any product that has a curve built into it down here.

Pro'ly a natural curve Ormond, like Mylar sheet.

Actually, Coreflute is a great product for lightweight backing, and invaluable for some mounting solutions (bend rod and shrink tube mounts can use the flutes to fold the wire into), but you usually need to reinforce this backing with an opposite laminated sheet of fluted board to ensure the curve doesn't get worse over time ('specially with heavier mounted objects).

[kev@frames]

we do also use the mdf as packaging as well. Polystryene slab is also useful and ideal pacakaging.

Os- I wouldn't say our customers are very "demanding", (difficult, sometimes, but not demanding) so I guess that was a tongue-in cheek remark. But they can be quite conservative (with a small c) and if they are used to, and have had no problems in the past with MDF, they may want to stick with what they have already. ("if it works dont fix fix it").
99 percent leave it up to us. So they get the suitable materials for the job, which is usually Art-Bak, which is easier to work with anyway. Can't fault the stuff really.

only drawback we have with artbak, and its a minor one in an otherwise ideal material to use, is that it fades in the light. so your offcut stack can very soon display a wide range of colours and patterns after a day or two in the summer.

coricor's first promotional material used to promote the curve feature. im not altogether sure that the current artbak has the same properties to the extent that it used to.

Obviously there are alternatives with styrene- foamcore or correx spring to mind.
but when the frame then weighs next to nothing, many customers perceive that its value-less, specially when the first stiff breeze from an open door has it flapping in the wind on their wall...

we would very much welcome the re-introduction by art-bak of the product stickers that corricor used to have, which we affixed to the backs of the framed items. customers liked them as well. It prevented the "you gave me cardboard" gag.

In fact we often use artbak as packing material when shipping mounts, great stuff. and I wouldn't have anything else on my own pictures.

I take on board what Os has to say about shipping/packing methods. but often its a case of weighiong up the value (in materials and time and weight) of the packaging, against the value (profit) of a self fit budget 16x12 or 12x10 frame, and MDF has its place there., as well as other applications ... Fitting stand up backs, for example. MDF's a real-world answer to a lot of framing issues, but obviously not usually the best material to use as a "default" bespoke back these days (because we know better now than we did 15 years ago).

But (imho) We ought not to get too precious about over specifying the materials in cheap/replacable/disposable/temporay art or else we run the risk of NOT giving the customer value for money because of a conervation/preservation ethos that is not applicable to their artwork. So I reckon MDF will be aound for a long time to come, for as long as it remains the right material for some jobs. Just like "standard" mountboard (mat board)

eg. today we shipped 20 mounts (mats) to the BBC, which will be on the telly. BBC's Art dept for this show specified standard board (not acid free as they usually have) suzi phones to make sure. "yes, thats right" they say, they are only having some photos in for one show, no point in wasting money".....
wont stop us whining about the license fee though

[Roboframer]

MDF enters our shop in two ways.

1. Packaging

2. Old frame backs.

Leaves in three ways...

1. Cut into standard sizes and left outside for a friendly travelling artist (OK - a tramp - bloody good artist though).

2. File 13.

3. Back in the old frames they came in if that's what the customer wants.

[Roboframer]

But (imho) We ought not to get too precious about over specifying the materials in cheap/replacable/disposable/temporay art or else we run the risk of NOT giving the customer value for money because of a conervation/preservation ethos that is not applicable to their artwork.

Well I look at the whole thing differently - all my customers get artcare protection; most in complete ignorance of the fact that it contains little green men that drive around with guns, killing nasty things that could destroy their art .. or 'art' etc.

Why? - Well it saves me from playing God - who am I to decide what is or what is not worth it - I'm no expert or fortune teller - nor are most customers. I just do it.

Another benefit - stock - simplifys storage.

Another - discounts - I bet I am paying less for the best than some are for stuff that goes brown.

There's more .... MY work stays looking the same for longer, I don't want it to self destruct so it can be taken to AN Other framer who shakes his head and tuts as he opens it in front of thye customer.

Once there was an excuse for putting nasty things inside the framing package - ignorance. Lack of product too.

Then there was some choice, but at a price.

Now there is tons of choice and everyone wants your business -

However - until I take the step of UV glass a standard, which I feel I ought to..... is there any point in NOT using MDF and the nastiest mountboard I can find at the cheapest price - artwork will fade before the MDF etc will rot it.


Of course there is!

[kev@frames]

just out of interest, what do you use for the backing in a standup Robo?



ps. likewise most of our customers get an approximation of conservation materials, unless they ask for cheaper or, in the case of museum curators for whom we supply, they ask for budget and possibly know exactly the worth of the item, and the materials appropriate.

[Roboframer]

just out of interest, what do you use for the backing in a standup Robo?

For a photoframe - the corricor equivalent or foamboard, depending on size.

For something bespoke artcare, either foamboard or 4 ply mountboard PLUS the backing board. Again depending on size - rebate depth too.

I use the curl up 'n stand too, but not the rivetted version.

[osgood]

if they are used to, and have had no problems in the past with MDF, they may want to stick with what they have already. ("if it works dont fix fix it").

Kev,
They probably have not noticed the problems, but they are there. Customer don't notice anything wrong with their art until it's too late. They don't notice mould growing inside their MDF backed frames, they don't notice brown spots on their art or anything else.

I agree totally with the concept of not fixing something that doesn't work or isn't broke, but that does not apply here. There is plenty wrong with it and the sooner that reluctance to dump it from framing materials the better this industry will be.

But (imho) We ought not to get too precious about over specifying the materials in cheap/replacable/disposable/temporay art or else we run the risk of NOT giving the customer value for money because of a conervation/preservation ethos that is not applicable to their artwork. So I reckon MDF will be aound for a long time to come, for as long as it remains the right material for some jobs. Just like "standard" mountboard (mat board)

I agree with you that temporary art doesn't need C/P materials, but do not agree with you that MDF is "the right material for some jobs". IMHO it is not the right material for anything in a frame shop except packaging! There is an alternative every time.

Your statement that MDF will be around for a long time will only be true whilst framers persist with making excuses to use it. Especially excuses like "but when the frame then weighs next to nothing, many customers perceive that its value-less,".
Perhaps people are different in your country, but down here this is a complete non-event. I wonder how many of your customers really think this way?

As far as blaming customers for wanting MDF, I think we all need to realize that we are the framers, we have more knowledge than our customers (hopefully) and we should be recommending what to use and in what circumstances. I have proved over and over again that it is possible to sell what I want to sell to my customers. You just have to know how to do it and above all want to do it.

Robo,
I don't go as far as you do and sell only Artcare foamboard. I still use some standard foamboard where Artcare is not required, and that is because of the cost. Artcare costs approximately 4 times as much as standard foamboard. I admire that fact that you use Artcare for everything!

[Roboframer]

I don't use it for eveything, mounts yes, but not backing, I think I said somewhere before that if it's stuck to/backed with something nasty, and removal is not an option, I'll use the fluted brown stuff.

I also stock normal 'acid free' foamboard but use it mainly for making mount slips (fillets) flush, also for packing out deep rebates, but normally behind the artcare board and normally in strips of offcuts, then back it all with the fluted stuff.

As for cost - I'm actually paying less than some suppliers' price for 'normal' stuff - there are discounts available - don't think I should spill what I get here though, or what suppliers charge more (list - before any discount) Suffice to say I like Nielsen a lot!

Also only buy it in jumbo size - less £ per sq ft.

[kev@frames]

We DO NOT recommend MDF over other more suitable materials. As I said, we have better materials in stock, and use MDF as the exception rather than the rule.
A Lot of what we get over the counter is temporay/ephemeral/replacable/novelty and in many cases it is not our place to decide to over-engineer and therefore overcharge our valued customers for uneccesary over-specified materials or additional irrelevant work.

For want of a better benchmark, we frame to the appropriate FATG guidelines or better, based on what the artwork is. And until a better system comes along, if its good enough for the national gallery or the tate it's good enough for us
we do a wide variety of work, for a wide range of different customers with different needs, different expectations, and different markets. So we cannot dictate what is "right" for each customer. We didn't get to frame and mount for the BBC, Google, Pinewood Studios, the Tate, the museum of science and industry and plenty more customers of that ilk by trying to impose a rigid "conservation" standard to each and every order they placed with us and not giving them an option that suited what they needed -rather trhan what we wanted to do.

Does that make us any less "professional" because we understand what our customer needs? The fact they keep coming back leads me to an obvious conclusion - that they trust us to use the appropriate gear for the job.
If a job needs conservation it gets it. If another criteria takes priority, then fair enough. We made many frames for the Wycliffe TV series - now these were mounted and UNGLAZED, so that there were no reflections. Were we supposed to refuse to do the jobs because having no glass was "not conservation"? We were making frames, but for a TV production - where does conservation figure in that? Its still part of the framing business.

[osgood]

Kev,
I think the decisions you make and the basis for them are appropriate and spot on. I do think it's our place to inform our customers that if we use C/P materials their item will benefit from that and make recommendations, but leave the decision on how much to spend, to the customer.

You obviously do much more "temporary" framing than I do. I haven't done a job with anything less than Alphamat in 15 or more years.

I just like to try to encourage people to not use MDF, because there are other materials available that do not have most of the disadvantages of MDF. The reason I do this is because of what I have observed in frames that contain MDF.

We can make an assumption that an item might be only temporary, but often we will find that item is still hanging 15 years later and could have benefitted from C/P materials anyway.

[kev@frames]

We do quite a lot of what could be called temporay framing, and quite a bit of re-usable framing (where the pictures are changed around). I reckon this accounts for about 25 percent of the frames we make.
The rest we fairly much do a conservation/protection job as a matter of course, and the remainder are where the price is the paramount concern, but these are usually "trade" customers, alleged artists wanting standard size mounts (mats) to resell their laser copies or computer printer carp in.

Usually the customers are oblivious to the fact that they are getting acid free and conservation materials, although some customers do still ask for MDF.

We also have a very large number of artists who want stuff framed in "the local style". Which is white painted...
For example they will have painted onto a block of MDF (20mm is too thick to call a sheet, I reckon) and want that fixed onto a white painted MDF background in a white painted obeche wood unglazed frame. Inevitably the white background will be painted MDF.

As we are also costal, the green mould syndrome on MDF is all too familiar, however this is not an issue if the mdf is sealed with pva (as touched on earlier), which takes seconds to put on with a paint pad, and (some say) acts as a barrier too.

It is also very common here to be presented with wet-mounted prints (often onto mdf) or heat sealed and laminated onto MDF.

In an ideal world of conservation and preservation MDF would not have any place in a frame shop, and rightly so if the frame shop specialises in conservation and preservation work only, and turns away everything else.
But in general framing, we still find uses for it as a more suitable material for what the customer needs out of the job.

Horses for courses, as they say.

Have not got any MDF backed pictures in my house, though.

[osgood]

We also have a very large number of artists who want stuff framed in "the local style". Which is white painted... For example they will have painted onto a block of MDF (20mm is too thick to call a sheet, I reckon) and want that fixed onto a white painted MDF background in a white painted obeche wood unglazed frame.

That used to be a reasonably common style down here too, in about the late 70's I think, but the material of choice was Masonite. Thank goodness it passed into "fashion" history long ago.
Maybe your area is stuck in some time warp, Kev?

As for "artists" painting on MDF, maybe someone needs to give them a good slap!

[kev@frames]

That used to be a reasonably common style down here too, in about the late 70's I think, but the material of choice was Masonite. Thank goodness it passed into "fashion" history long ago.
Maybe your area is stuck in some time warp, Kev?

As for "artists" painting on MDF, maybe someone needs to give them a good slap!

you hold 'em down, I'll slap 'em

We have had the "all white" craze for a few years now. It peaked a couple of years ago.
In Penzance and St Ives there are literally galleries on every street, and EVEY one has windows and walls full of this white painted stuff.

I blame a few (well, two) of the gallery owners for insisting that work is framed this way, because they had a lot of sucess with one well known local artist who framed his own work like this (and to be fair it suited his paintings) and then they refuse to sell work that is framed in other ways (which is often more sympathetic to the picture).
Looks nice and uniform in their galleries, yes, I agree. A bunch of pictures from different artists all looking like a sparkling fresh exhibition from one brush, But same old same old....
On the plus side, we charge a lot for it, and then we do get quite a lot of re-framing work from customers who want their gallery purchases "putting in a proper frame" and see our sticker on the back.

[osgood]

Gallery owners? Well they seem to be a bit strange in some ways, so that doesn't surprise me at all. How boring.....have they never heard of using colours and textures that "enhance" each individual piece of artwork? Nah, well you wouldn't want to do that, would you....might make some sense and help sell it! "Bah humbug", I suppose!

[Merlin]

Ormond
I live and work some 11 miles to the East of Kev (Moonshine) and we communicate and visit each others premises.

I cannot shift any white or limed mouldings at all. Believe me I have tried. Thinking Hey if Kev can do it surely I am not far away to be within the 'capture area' for those (wierd) customers.

Admittedly, Ash and the other barefaced moulding move very well. Yet my best seller is a half inch oak finish profile, followed by one inch flat black satin profile.

No acounting for taste and location. Maybe Demographics as well. My customers are either Military or 'retired wrinklies' whereas Kev's are the new artists who are going to change the image world with their work.

Yea right!!!

[kev@frames]

He's right: Two neighbouring town, but completely different styles:

even most of the locals here mock the white painted frames

By way of example - St Ives Society of Artists....



all that white paint..... it makes your eyes hurt

[foxyframer]

When in Totnes, Devon and admittedly fifteen years ago everything in a particular gallery was in ivory mounts and narrow ramin frames. How's that for playing the safety game. Nothing more boring and total lack of imagination than that.

The white frame syndrome probably makes for a mix and match approach.

Maybe the reason in Cornwall though stems from white painted cottages, both exterior and interior, along with todays' minimalist theme; keeping it dead simple.

[kev@frames]

I concede it is a nice look in the right setting. But over-the counter customers requesting this white, for their own homes, are fairly few and far between. Its usually artists, and often they add "the gallery wants them white".