Poor quality of available 2mm float glass

Not your average framer · Sun 17 Jun, 2007 1:20 pm

According my suppliers "Hunguard" glass is no longer available, or if available it's too expensive. Unfortunately, it also appears to mean that I am now expected to accept glass with small, but visible defects in most sheets with no superior alternative to choose if I don't like it.

Recently supplied glass also has some kind of blue stain apparently deliberately used to mark some sheets which has to been cleaned off before use. I'm inclined to wonder what exactly these blue stained markings are intended to signify (Rejects?).

Has anyone else recently had quality problems with glass, or is it just me?

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sun 17 Jun, 2007 4:36 pm

I use two suppliers, depending on what else I want with the glass.

The only problem I find is with glass that is interleaved with grey, absorbent paper; not the nice white stuff.

The paper cockles and you get a 'mackerel' pattern etched on the glass which you see when you wet or breath on it, sometimes it comes off with a normal clean, sometimes not. Also get flecks and flaws and sometimes the glass is stuck together with tiny blobs of stuff and sometimes breaks at those points.

You also sometimes get this mackerel pattern on UV and museum glass which is interleaved with brown paper, which cockles, and although it will come off with extra fine steel wool, you can't use it on the coated sides.

Not your average framer · Sun 17 Jun, 2007 5:41 pm

Hi John,

Yes, that's what we are finding, except the latest stuff has a very shinny thin white paper (possibly waxed?), but the result is still the same. It's a real pain trying to find a large defect free piece.

Why do suppliers insist on buying the cheapest and not giving us a choice?

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Mon 18 Jun, 2007 7:58 am

Hungard needs little cleaning; always ripple free, a joy to use and is always specified on ordering.

Most of the other stuff can be a real pain; especially that from the far east and China and wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

We pay no more for Hungard than any other decent 2mm float.

Ours is supplied by G&M; so if it is being discontinued, for what ever reason, it'll be a great shame

Not your average framer · Mon 18 Jun, 2007 9:44 pm

Hi Foxyframer,

That's interesting, it's a shame that glass and mirror don't deliver to Devon, but the fact that they can still supply Hungard doesn't square with what our supplier is saying or implying.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Mon 18 Jun, 2007 9:54 pm

I'd never heard of bleedin' Hungard! I'll have to ask my G&M rep if that is what I'm getting.

I think I'm coming close to using UV (Tru Vu Conservation clear) as standard - everything for sale in the shop has it - too much inconsistency with standard 2mm paper float, and anyway, what's the point in using, and beating my gums about using, the best mountboard as standard if the bleedin' picture is going to disappear before the effects of standard mountboard would have spoiled it??

I mean, sometimes I 'tut tut' when I open frames with brown mount bevels and see no undermount, artwork against MDF backing, hinged with masking tape, or badly hinged with better stuff, but what's it matter when the damned thing has faded and would have anyway even if those materials and/or methods were the best???

Biggest enemy to artwork is light, that really should be the starting point.

realhotglass · Post by **realhotglass** » Tue 19 Jun, 2007 4:22 am

Roboframer wrote:. . . but what's it matter when the damned thing has faded and would have anyway even if those materials and/or methods were the best???

Biggest enemy to artwork is light, that really should be the starting point.

It's great to hear framers starting to realise and state the above more !!

UV light especially accelerates a lot of the other problems you mention Robo, such as darkening of residual lignin, ie standard paper mat bevels going brown, and cellulose breakdown in the paper itself.

Of course this is on top of the pigment fading issues with inks and paints, as well as damage to textiles.

I've just collated a lot of info about UV light damage, and made this 2 page info sheet . . . http://www.tudorglass.com.au/docs/light_damage.pdf

Mostly, I wanted to ensure people are aware that although using UV glass will slow damage down considerably, other wavelength light (including visible light) must also be recognised as a source of damage and considered wherever possible.

PS. forgot to add . . . a lot of this cheap glass issue about is due to customers (ie end clients and some framers) driving the price down.

This reminds me of quality issues with moulding and other materials being complained about all over the world . . . how much is due to people shopping about for the cheapest price, cheapest, cheap, never VALUE.
Look at Denglas in the US, closed. Had the best glass in the world (DenglasUV), and about the same cost as TV Museum.
There are other good companies considering change.

When clients keep screaming for price, quality is going to go downhill very fast.
Funny thing is, the more you fellas pay for something (I'm talking getting quality and value through for the end client too) the more you add to your bottom line !

Beats me why price is the first thing considered by many people is sourcing materials.

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Tue 19 Jun, 2007 7:13 am

It's insidious throughout this modern world of ours, no matter what, that the cheapest price for anything, is of prime importance. The related quality compared with cost comes a poor second. Hence the afore mentioned value.

Same goes for all the materials we buy in. Many framers buy on price alone. What is your cheapest price ? Cheep Cheep Cheep ! Only to be the cheapest around. No merit in that I would have thought.

Many customers echo the same sentiments; it's endemic.

The quality materials are out there. Get the pricing right and the bottom line will look far more attractive.

Thank God for what I call the 5% (please don't ask me how I worked that one out ) who want the best, not compromise and are prepared to pay and not go 'price shy'.

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Tue 19 Jun, 2007 7:34 am

Bleedin' Hungard is interleaved with the 'nice white stuff ' and has never given me a sleepless night. Comes in from Hungary (who would have guessed that).

If G&M are going to discontinue stocking 'bleeding hungard' for whatever reason; whether for price or availability, or so goes the rumour, (rumours abound in our trade) I for one will be severely disappointed. So insist on Hungard for your ordinary 2mm float and let's have some trade pressure.

After all, they are main suppliers to the trade and a posting on this forum should settle matters finally.

I have been approached in the past by a glass suppliers in the west country, no names, offering the absolute cheapest, cheapest glass.
Will not buy purely on price olone. No way

Not your average framer · Tue 19 Jun, 2007 9:26 pm

After a quick phone call, I find that my original supplier who got dropped over a year ago when they dropped Hungard are again supplying it, but at a much higher price, £3.70 per 3ft x 4ft sheet for a quantity of 20 sheets.

My current supplier who have dropped Hungard, were selling it at £2.65 per 3ft x 4ft sheet for a quantity of 20 sheets. They are now supplying their far eastern replacement for the same price.

I'm still thinking about what I'm going to do about it. Another company which is pushing hard in this part of the country is claiming to offer grade A glass at £2.65 per 3ft x 4ft sheet for a quantity of 20 sheets, but it's not Hungard. I'll probably give them a try soon to see what theirs is like.

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Tue 19 Jun, 2007 9:53 pm

Hi NYA

Looks like it's the same pushy glass supplier in your area that approached us. Stick to Hungard, it will give you no aggro and you'll spend far less time polishing and titting about with it.

There's no mistaking the good stuff; it's clean, wavy mackeral line free and time is money, even if it costs a bit more.

realhotglass · Post by **realhotglass** » Tue 19 Jun, 2007 10:53 pm

Amen to that ff.

Heck, UV glass much more than plain glass, yet so easy to sell in the appropriate circumstances (most custom framing work).

Glass is extremely cheap, and normal or speciality glass is such a small part of a total framing project.

It's LABOUR that must be controlled and properly allowed for.

Many framers are realising this more and more, and it's a good thing.
The ones that don't won't be about through tough times.

Aussie glass can be bought for as little as $2.50AUD a 4' x 3' sheet, but framers using this will cut their glass, spend way more time cleaning it, then often find a defect, and sometimes after assembly.
That cost far more than extra quality glass cost.
For what, a saving of perhaps a few $ for the framers, $10 (a few pounds) for the client ?

Your 3.70GBP is $8.70AUD, so relatively good value.

Buy from the other guy, the higher cost supplier will stop supplying, then the cheaper one will either put his prices up to realistic level, or be competing with other cheaper glass.

It's a vicious cycle, and ultimately all lose in the process.
Supplier, framer, customer with poor quality.

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Wed 20 Jun, 2007 6:50 am

Actually when you think about it the price of float glass has gone virtually nowhere in donkeys' years and represents as RHG says a minor part of our costings.

So, no worries.

realhotglass · Post by **realhotglass** » Wed 20 Jun, 2007 8:15 am

Apologies, this line . . .

"Aussie glass can be bought for as little as $2.50AUD a 4' x 3' sheet"

was supposed to be 2.50 *GBP*

absolute framing · Post by **absolute framing** » Wed 20 Jun, 2007 8:37 am

I think you guys have it easy.
Here in ireland i'm paying Euro 10.30 +VAT per 4 x3 ( £7.00 + VAT )

BookFrames · Post by **BookFrames** » Wed 20 Jun, 2007 12:24 pm

Hi Absolute Framing,
We get our glass from Carey Glass in Tipperary for €6.16 + Vat per 3'*4'. I havent had any problems with bad quality, 50 sheets per delivery so you need good access.

Leo

absolute framing · Post by **absolute framing** » Wed 20 Jun, 2007 2:27 pm

Thanks Leo,

I'll have a look at that !

Cheers,

Stephen

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Wed 27 Jun, 2007 11:45 pm

Last week we got some new glass (from the usual supplier) with smoothed edges!
4x3ft clip frames anybody?

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Wed 27 Jun, 2007 11:52 pm

Thanks from me, too, Leo. Best price I've managed to get locally is €9.91 (£6.60) ex VAT per 4' x 3'.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Thu 28 Jun, 2007 7:48 am

Hi Kev
We too were very surprised at the smooth edges on our glass delivery.
Same supplier then ????

Having said that though, the glass is very good to work with and requires very little cleaning.

See you around